FAA restricts East River flights

[Doug Taylor]

Vote accordingly!

Really.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Some of the data that I saw (unverified) gives the width of the river in that area at around 2000 feet. Consider that the diameter of a 180 degree turn, 30 degree bank, at 80 knots is very close to 2000 feet. Add in the fact that the SR20 stall speed, clean, level flight, at 30 degree bank, is 70 KIAS.

Interesting, this sparked my interest and I looked further into it:

From an article recently posted, 710 wide corridor = 2130'
Aircraft was last tracked going 112 MPH, 700' just prior to making the turn


I did some googling and found:
Radius of turn / 30 degrees bank @ 112 MPH = 1460' = 2920' diameter turn
Radius of turn / 45 degrees bank @ 112 MPH = 842' = 1680' diameter turn

They would've had to do a pretty aggressive turn, especially considering that they *probably* weren't on the extreme east side of the river. I could see them diving in on it (lazy-8 type) which might explain why they were lower (500') at the point of impact.

According to maps.google.com, the river (and associated class B cutout) is just over 2000'. From the east bank of the river to where the aircraft hit it was 2650'.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

They don't need to - they are already in the air...

(callsign "death")

Could be, but I thought they were supposed to be ready to intercept in five minutes or less.

If we've got a combat air patrol being flown 24/7/365 over major American cities, man, are we burning cash fast.

[Hootie]

This is retarted. I bet from the time the plane hit the building to the time the fire was put out more people had died being knifed on the streets of New York, than as a result of that plane crash.

[towhook]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I've been following some conversations on another site that also has some pilots experienced with the area, and most (not all) say that the East River is too tight for safe 180 degree turns at low level (below building height). Not saying that it couldn't, or isn't done, just that the margins are tight.

Some of the data that I saw (unverified) gives the width of the river in that area at around 2000 feet. Consider that the diameter of a 180 degree turn, 30 degree bank, at 80 knots is very close to 2000 feet. Add in the fact that the SR20 stall speed, clean, level flight, at 30 degree bank, is 70 KIAS.

If you increase the bank angle to 45 degrees, but also increase airspeed to stay above a stall, you will find a turn diameter of 1800 feet at 100 knots. Way too close to 2000 feet, and you still have to assume that they started their turn somewhere over water, not right at the east shore of the river. Then add a 13+ knot wind from the east pushing them even further into the buildings and things don't look too good for a successful completion.

Considering that he was a low time private pilot, and the CFI was from out of state and probably unfamiliar with the area, it is all too easy to see the links of the accident chain forming. I could even see them starting up the East River by mistake (low vis) rather than the Hudson. Hard to say...

I think this and wheelsup's calculations most likely explain what happened. There is alot more room just north of roosevelt island, and just south abeam the 34th st heliport, but over the island it is tight. I turn around on the east river, but then again I am only going 40-45 mph, and I have always turned either north or south of roosevelt. I used to always go just north of the island to turn when I started flying around the city. After a couple weeks I just started turning abeam the 3 4 because of how tight it was up there. I thought I would be too annoying to the people who live in the high rises right next to the river... that was my reason, not hitting anything, but it shows how close you get.

I don't see how you could accidentilly head up the wrong river... but these guys clearly weren't the best. How the hell do you just run into a building?! Ug. Sounds like we have some canidates for this year's Darwin award. Guess judgement can't be passed though until all the facts are in...


What ever happened to the supposed 'fuel management' radio call that was reported early on?

[johnd1982]

I live in SouthWest Florida, and the winning comment about this event has to be from Jeff on Wink 96.9's breakfast show.

He was talking about the parachute on the aircraft -
"Corey Lidle didn't want to open the chute as it would damage the aircraft, however, if he had, the chute would have lifted him above the city where he could have then glided free of any buildings"

Now, I am no expert on Ballistic Recovery Systems, but I don't believe they make a plane go up at least 500ft and then allow it to glide!! I think you are pretty much going straight down, except for wind drift!!!

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Vote accordingly!

Really.

Agreed. . . vote accordingly.

[CapnJim]

Gotta love knee-jerk policies.

You know, I head the other day that a notable person made a left-hand turn and ran into a fire hydrant, causing water pressure in the neigborhood, and therefore the fire departments fire-fighting ability, to be temporarily diminished. Clearly, the only suitable solution is a temproary ban on left-hand turns at that intersection.

<dusts off hands by slapping them together>

There! Problem solved.

[MarkE]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Gotta love knee-jerk policies.

You know, I head the other day that a notable person made a left-hand turn and ran into a fire hydrant, causing water pressure in the neigborhood, and therefore the fire departments fire-fighting ability, to be temporarily diminished. Clearly, the only suitable solution is a temproary ban on left-hand turns at that intersection.

<dusts off hands by slapping them together>

There! Problem solved.

There should be a permanent ban on left hand turns. What if terrorists exploit left hand turns to carry out an attack??

[Doug Taylor]

I think we should ban sexual intercourse.

Unwanted pregnancies... rape... incest... bigamy... infidelity... I mean, if we just banned it altogether, how many of our societal ills would simply vanish!

Who's with me?!

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I think we should ban sexual intercourse.

Unwanted pregnancies... rape... incest... bigamy... infidelity... I mean, if we just banned it altogether, how many of our societal ills would simply vanish!

Who's with me?!

I would be, but my wife said "hell no!" Guess I'm stuck doing the deed for years to come. Sigh.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I'm waiting to see what Kristie's reply will be, or maybe that is what posed Doug for the idea.

Sad, Sad, day here guys!