Comair crash hypothetical

[jtsastre]

I know that the Comair crash has been discussed quite thoroughly, but I had a hypothetical question my brother and I were discussing.

Say that a private pilot (or someone who knew quite a bit about aviation) was a passenger on the plane that crashed and this particular person was very familiar with KLEX. While taxiing to the departing runway, this person notices that the pilots have mistakenly lined up with, what he knows, as the wrong runway.

What could one do in this situation? Could he inform the FA so that he/she could inform the pilots? Would the FA, pilots listen to this person’s concern?

I just thought it would be quite a predicament to be in. I’ve flown many times out of any airport I’m very familiar with as a passenger, and I wonder sometimes if the pilots lined up with the wrong runway, what I would do in that situation.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Just a curiosity thing I guess.

Jtsastre

[JEP]

.....And how would you know what rw they were given in their clearance......?

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by JEP

.....And how would you know what rw they were given in their clearance......?

You might only know that the runway was too short . . .?

[JEP]

Originally Posted by bumblebee

You might only know that the runway was too short . . .?

Touche!!!! O.k.

IF you knew the rw was too short and IF you knew the performance of the A/C......Or I suppose IF you knew that 'these types' of planes don't use th rw then you may speak up.

JUst assumed the average PPL may not know that information......

In todays world, IF you know something is wrong, Get up out of your seat and run and scream down the aisle. You can be guaranteed that the plane would not take-off.

[MQAAord]

I had pax ask me "Do they know that engine isn't running?" While single-engine taxiing in an ATR. I've had pax tell me "Oh, I'm so glad you don't fly those horrid prop planes on this route anymore, these jets are SO much better!" While flying on an ATR-72-212A.

Pax say really stupid stuff to F/As, and those pax genuinely think they know what they're talking about. If you tell the F/As the pilots are on the wrong runway, you'll probably get a stern "Sir, the pilots know what they're doing, please sit down" from the F/A.

Now, with that being said, if you are absolutely, 100% sure that your life is quite possibly in eminent danger of ending, go ahead and raise a rukus.

But please, make sure that you really do know where you are and what's really going on before you go screaming to a plane load of people that they're taking off on the wrong runway or something similar!

[N422NM]

Sounds like that video of the guy that was posted awhile back...the monotone fool that was filming from row 19 and commenting "V1, Vr, V2...oh my god, I've never been so scared..."

[BobDDuck]

There was a great training video I saw the last time in reccurent about how a 737 with a deadheading crew on board was about to take off with their spoilers up. Everybody thought the flightdeck crew knew because there are all sorts of alarms that go off when the spoilers are out. Even the plane behind them knew they were up but nobody said anything until they were on the runway with the power coming up. Then the deadhead crew members started making noise and the plane behind called on the radio.

[Louie1975]

There was an Airtran pilot commuting to Atlanta for work on that flight. I have wondered if he knew something was wrong.

[BobDDuck]

He probably was asleep as soon as the they pushed off the gate. Early morning commute. I know I would be.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

He probably was asleep as soon as the they pushed off the gate. Early morning commute. I know I would be.

I was asleep as soon as I was in my seat every early am commute I did! I'd try to stay awake at least until I heard the gear come up, but I was always so damn tired.

[Doug Taylor]

On an early morning commute, I'm usually asleep a few minutes after i reach my seat until at least the start of initial approach.

I'm usually bored silly riding in the back of an airplane!

[Kingairer]

i normally have my E6B out to make sure everything is on schedule, if not i call the FA to tell the guys to call aTC and let them know.

[Doug Taylor]

Gah! I think I had you on the airplane recently...

"You guys gonna kick it up to .81, hey? hey?" from a cabin jumpseater.

"Kick it up, Skippy? Go sit down" replied the captain.

True story.

[Kingairer]

That was me...and you need about 5 left of course, we were supposed to fly right over that water tower in Smiths Grove.

[Bigey]

Had the same thought if i saw something that was not supposed to happen, what to do. I went with the assumption of jumping out of my seat and screaming on the top of my lungs about the airplane is going to crash or something along the lines to freak everyone out. Hell they dont have to understand me, but after 9/11 i'm pretty sure anyone running down the aisle would be a for sure no takeoff!

[Ophir]

We had a pax, not on my flight, tell the FA that there was a hissing sound that he was not familar with. He was a frequent flier and heard this on the taxi. Sure enough there was a Cabin altitude pressure message shortly after the takeoff. He heard a seal in the emergency door.


BTW, we flew that LEX RWY 26 last night in the sim, 50 pax, 50,000lbs, 26 degrees C, static T/O both flaps 8 and 20. We made it both times, but barely with flaps 8. Of course there were no trees in the Sim. We also have the CF34-3B1 engines too, not the A's (better performance).

[awacs94]

This is quickly turining into a Anet thread

[B767Driver]

Several years ago, during taxi out a flight attendant calls up and says a Canadian Aviation Inspector says your hydraulic pumps are on...and that they should be off on the ground. Our procedure is to turn them on after engine start, leave them on for all ground ops, then turn them off after takeoff.

She calls back a minute later and says he is escalating the situation and is scaring people around him.

The captain stops the airplane on the taxiway...makes a very articulate and reassuring PA and off we go.

During deplaning...a very pompous looking man in his 60's...full business attire with an aide next to him...tells the captain that he will refer this case to the local FAA authorities and that he flew an airplane without regard to proper procedure. The puny little aide takes some type of jab in there as well and that we run the risk of overheating the pumps by leaving them on for so long.
?????

The captain very matter of factly stated that he had flown this type of airplane for 9600 hours over the last 16 years and he is pretty sure he flew this leg just like all the others...including observations in front of the FAA who approved of his actions.

Then end. No confrontations, no escalations, no engaging the pompous man for his amusement even though the man wanted to engage. I personally, think he wanted everyone seated near him to know how important he was.

Never heard any more about it.

But back to the original poster...as a cockpit crewmember...I don't mind one bit if a passenger brings up a safety issue to relay to the cockpit. I think it's a great idea. If it happens while we're still at the gate...I'll go back to where the passenger is seated and discuss it with him/her. The passenger always appreciates that.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Ophir

BTW, we flew that LEX RWY 26 last night in the sim, 50 pax, 50,000lbs, 26 degrees C, static T/O both flaps 8 and 20. We made it both times, but barely with flaps 8. Of course there were no trees in the Sim. We also have the CF34-3B1 engines too, not the A's (better performance).

Out of curiosity were you flexing? I don't even know if the CMR flight was a flex take off or not, but just off the top of my head the difference between a flex and max blast at that temp and weight would be around 4% N1. That's more then enough to make the difference between a clean take off and what happened.

[jtsastre]

Thanks for the replies. I was mostly curious to know whether or not the flight crew would even listen. But like some of you said, passengers say some stupid stuff sometimes thinking they know what’s happening, when the flight crew does this day in and day out. But in this instance, and if I were 100% sure, I would definitely say something.

Also, I didn’t know there was a pilot commuting on that flight. If he had noticed something wrong, this could have been the very situation we’ve been discussing. Crazy.

Jtsastre

[Ophir]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Out of curiosity were you flexing? I don't even know if the CMR flight was a flex take off or not, but just off the top of my head the difference between a flex and max blast at that temp and weight would be around 4% N1. That's more then enough to make the difference between a clean take off and what happened.

Ya know, I can't remember. It was 2am. But as I recall we were putting in most elements to make it worst case. But I think we were normal thrust. It was one of those things, we didn't have a release and so we weren't thinking assumed temp. Good catch!

[Bog]

Ophir: any chance you tried the t/o rolling? Something tells me that if those guys had been hustling to meet a flow time, they might have kept it rolling around the turn.

Here's another thought about being the PVT pilot who sounds the alarm that something is wrong. Even if you're right, will the flight crew admit to it after aborting a takeoff? I'd have to imagine that it'd be awfully tempting to claim you had a nutso passenger causing a disturbance in the back, which resulted in an aborted takeoff, then to claim you aborted a takeoff in an erroneous situation thanks to the bravery of a private pilot.

Basically, even if you're right, be prepared to be held in a cold cell for at least a little while.

[Ophir]

Originally Posted by Bog

Ophir: any chance you tried the t/o rolling? Something tells me that if those guys had been hustling to meet a flow time, they might have kept it rolling around the turn.

Here's another thought about being the PVT pilot who sounds the alarm that something is wrong. Even if you're right, will the flight crew admit to it after aborting a takeoff? I'd have to imagine that it'd be awfully tempting to claim you had a nutso passenger causing a disturbance in the back, which resulted in an aborted takeoff, then to claim you aborted a takeoff in an erroneous situation thanks to the bravery of a private pilot.

Basically, even if you're right, be prepared to be held in a cold cell for at least a little while.

We went static just because we knew we wouldn't make it otherwise. I was about 90% N1 when I released the brakes. With flaps 8 I rotated just at the grass.

We were starting our t/o roll a few months ago and we heard this yelling in the cabin. The Captain and I just looked at each other when we heard it and going through about 80kts. The thought was "What the hell was that? Should we abort?" But we continued. It turns out it was some pax yelling to his friend in the back about some #####. Little did they know that we heard it and thought about aborting. Things are definitely different after 9/11 but the only way we would abort would be to have the FA making it very clear that we needed to.

[JAM]

"After 80 kts and before V1, we'll abort for engine fire, failure, loss of directional control, master warning, or loud yelling from the cabin." Is that how the brief goes?

Not saying you might have actually aborted, just some of my thoughts. A high speed abort is a serious and potentially dangerous maneuver and, in my opinion, should not be attempted soley due to some yelling from the cabin. Especially if you have an FA to "deal" with the issue in the back. In my airplane, the pax have direct access to the cockpit, so depending on the nature of the yelling and other physical movements, the situation may be more serious than if we had a locking bulletproof door.

[Killtron2000]

Fastest way to stop an airliner is to run down the isle screaming allah akbar and then pound on the cockpit door.