Hypothetical situation: mx issue

[jrh]

Here's a bit of a "You're the captain" story for those in charge of Cessnas:

You return from a flight and, after landing, discover the left brake is almost completely failed. It has a small amount of power, but essentially goes to the floor and is useless. The right brake is still fully functional.

You're based at a small airport without any maintenance facilities.

Do you:

A) Fly the plane out to another nearby airport to get worked on.

B) Call the nearest FAA office and ask for a special flight permit.

C) Arrange for a mechanic to come to your airport and work on the plane on-site.

D) Come up with a solution I haven't listed.

If you opt for answer B), what do you do if the FAA denies you a special flight permit?

[Screaming_Emu]

I'm not flyin that thing without a brake, just seems like asking for trouble.

[DE727UPS]

If the runways are long enough at both places, I'd have no problem flying it.

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

If the runways are long enough at both places, I'd have no problem flying it.

exactly...with no flaps and no brakes, it'd probably take about a 6,000 ft. runway to get stopped in a cessna or other light single..........with flaps, probably half that....

I'd just as soon not call the faa so you don't back yourself into a corner.....i'd just be very very very careful about taxiing and the conditions you're flying into...if anything happens, your balls will be stapled to the wall......

the safest option is to call a mechanic and have them fix it......

[HH-60CC]

I'd check the master cylinder, see if it req's servicing/bleeding, check the lines, make sure they're tight. If the MC req's servicing, see if the airport has any hydraulic fluid, if they do, service it and be on my way. If it's something beyond servicing, I'd just call a mechanic.

[Timbuff10]

After having the mechanic disable and placard the brake inop do you put the placard on the pedal?

If it is inop have it fixed or rent from someone else. Did the FBO give you a discount for haveing a plane that wasn't quite all there?

[spbrian]

Originally Posted by launchpad

exactly...with no flaps and no brakes, it'd probably take about a 6,000 ft. runway to get stopped in a cessna or other light single..........with flaps, probably half that....

I'd just as soon not call the faa so you don't back yourself into a corner.....i'd just be very very very careful about taxiing and the conditions you're flying into...if anything happens, your balls will be stapled to the wall......

the safest option is to call a mechanic and have them fix it......

6,000 feet? Are you serious? You must be joking... Where at Denver, and this is the take off ground roll distance? How long is the runway you would be taking off and landing at, at sea level you could be down and stopped in 2000 easy with no brakes. Not sure i'd fly the creation but if you had to you could do it, but I wouldn't do it with less than 4K of runway either at departure or arrival airport. Doubt you would get a ferry permit for that.

-Brian

[OldTownPilot]

One brake still works. Check for serviceable items, like HH said, if thats not it fly the darn thing to a service station, just be real careful on landing.

[jtrain609]

CYA at all times.

-Get a ferry permit, it won't take long to get it faxed out to you

-Fly it back to where ever you need to so that you can get the MX done on it

-Land short on a long runway, use aerodynamic breaking to make sure you get stopped

-Be ready to have the airplane towed off the runway if you can't make your turnoff

And if the FAA says you can't fly it without a special flight permit, then you might as well consider yourself grounded de facto. If they tell you that you don't need one that's one thing, but if they deny you one then it's obvious that under that FSDO's interp. the airplane isn't airworthy. So if you go and depart anyways, your original airworthyness certificate is assumed to be void because the aircraft isn't airworthy and you have nothing to suppliment it (I.E. the ferry permit). Departing in an unairworthy aircraft when the FAA already knows you've got a problem isn't exactly the smartets way to keep your certificates. Just get a mechanic out there.

And if anybody pressures you to make that flight, remember that whatever company you're working for/renting from doesn't give a crap about your certificates. They will do everything in their power to cover THEIR butt and hang yours out to dry.

Originally Posted by jrh

Here's a bit of a "You're the captain" story for those in charge of Cessnas:

You return from a flight and, after landing, discover the left brake is almost completely failed. It has a small amount of power, but essentially goes to the floor and is useless. The right brake is still fully functional.

You're based at a small airport without any maintenance facilities.

Do you:

A) Fly the plane out to another nearby airport to get worked on.

B) Call the nearest FAA office and ask for a special flight permit.

C) Arrange for a mechanic to come to your airport and work on the plane on-site.

D) Come up with a solution I haven't listed.

If you opt for answer B), what do you do if the FAA denies you a special flight permit?

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by jrh

You return from a flight and, after landing, discover the left brake is almost completely failed. It has a small amount of power, but essentially goes to the floor and is useless. The right brake is still fully functional.

You're based at a small airport without any maintenance facilities.

Well, you landed there with it like that and obviously you're still alive. I'd get in and fly it to someplace with maintenance. You really shouldn't need brakes to get a light single down to taxi speed on anything more than about 3000 ft. (conservatively). If you do, seek help.

P.S.- Why would you call for a ferry permit? You said it has "a small amount of power", so that means it's "working," no? Unless you like dealing with the FAA for fun, I'd leave them out of it. They'd probably say no anyways.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

CYA at all times.

-Get a ferry permit, it won't take long to get it faxed out to you

-Fly it back to where ever you need to so that you can get the MX done on it.

You forgot one thing. A ferry permit is not valid until it is inspected and an aircraft logbook entry is made. You'd have to do some convincing to get an A&P to sign something like a busted brake off for a ferry permit.

[SteveC]

I'm having a hard time imagining what could possibly be important enough to make me want to fly an aircraft that isn't working properly?

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

CYA at all times.

-Get a ferry permit, it won't take long to get it faxed out to you

-Fly it back to where ever you need to so that you can get the MX done on it

-Land short on a long runway, use aerodynamic breaking to make sure you get stopped

-Be ready to have the airplane towed off the runway if you can't make your turnoff

And if the FAA says you can't fly it without a special flight permit, then you might as well consider yourself grounded de facto. If they tell you that you don't need one that's one thing, but if they deny you one then it's obvious that under that FSDO's interp. the airplane isn't airworthy. So if you go and depart anyways, your original airworthyness certificate is assumed to be void because the aircraft isn't airworthy and you have nothing to suppliment it (I.E. the ferry permit). Departing in an unairworthy aircraft when the FAA already knows you've got a problem isn't exactly the smartets way to keep your certificates. Just get a mechanic out there.

And if anybody pressures you to make that flight, remember that whatever company you're working for/renting from doesn't give a crap about your certificates. They will do everything in their power to cover THEIR butt and hang yours out to dry.

That is a tough one. Depending field conditions and rwy lengths you can make an argument either way. However, if something were to happen will you hear these five words "WILL THE DEFENDANT PLEASE RISE" If you think you might then don't take the trip and get mx to come out and fix it.

[roundout]

Originally Posted by jrh

You return from a flight and, after landing, discover the left brake is almost completely failed. It has a small amount of power, but essentially goes to the floor and is useless. The right brake is still fully functional.

You're based at a small airport without any maintenance facilities.

if i'm back at base after a flight, i go home for the day, drink some beer and call the mechanic at 7pm and tell him it has to be fixed for the 0700 show in the morning.

hypotheticals aside....call mx and have it fixed. it's not worth the risk of having a student leave you in a big pickle because the brakes need to be bled. this actually happened to me in a rented warrior - no problems on departure. landed and one brake went to the floor. decelerating was strange, but steering was easy because it was a warrior. a 150 or 172 might be more difficult to handle on the ground with an inop brake.

[jrh]

Thanks for all the good thoughts everybody.

Here's how I handled the situation when it happened to me today:

I called the FSDO to get a special ferry permit. The FAA guy wasn't at all happy with the idea of a special ferry permit and acted surprised that I would even consider such a thing for an inop brake.

I then called the mechanic to see if he could come out and work on it on-site. He told me I had screwed up by even talking to the FAA and I should just fly it over to him anyway. Ok...sure...not with *my* certificates on the line I won't.

So I called the operator of this aircraft and told him what was happening. He told me I'd made a good choice, he didn't want the plane flying either, and he'd get a mechanic out to me one way or another.

Oh, and to clarify the situation, it's a C-150, and I would've been taking it in to a 2200' grass runway at the airport where the mechanic is, had I decided to fly it. The other option would have been a 2400' paved runway at the same airport, but I think grass is worth 200 feet of braking.

So, whatever people think of it, that's what I did. It's one of those things where I think I probably could have made it in fine, but if something had happened...I don't want to be explaining myself to an investigator. Gambling a big chunk of my career on an old C-150? I don't think so.

[falconvalley]

I actually had the pleasure of only having one working brake on landing in a Cessna 182. It's virtually a non-event as long as you don't panic. I had the airplane stopped in less than 2000 ft. As far as departing with only one working brake? IMO It'd better a really good reason, even with a ferry permit. I'd call a mechanic. Risk assessment tells me few things are worth the risk in that situation.

[towhook]

jrh,

This experience has shown you a full spectrum of opinions, from the FAA guy who was suprised that you would even think of flying the aircraft, to the mechanic who was suprised you wouldn't. Biggest thing you need to realize is that no one can make the right decision for you. With experience you will make better choices and have confidence in them.

Practice some 'one brake landings' next time you are up. Remember, the idea is to get the job done (or at least one day it will be). It was once explained to me: some day in the future you may not want to delay your transatlantic 747 flight 2 hours because one of the 6 baggage compartment smoke detectors is inop, even if the faa might say you should.


Try not to call the FAA from now on. Mechanics don't usally give the best suggestions to pilots either. Maybe find some old timer pilot you respect and get his cell # for future referance. They usually know what's up. Instructors are good sounding boards too, but remember, they haven't had that much experience either.

Good job making your own decision.

[Looking4Lower]

IMHO, the first option to attempt is to get a mechanic to the plane on-site (dealt with this on everthing from light singles to jets). Lots of amazing things can be done by a mechanic right there on a ramp.

Flying the plane to an MX facility is my choice #2, but that's a risk management call. Is the airplane safe to fly? Is it "airworthy" in the technical sense? Are you comfortable doing it? What other factors might be involved in that decision? Of course, if anything happens the FAA always has the option of burning you with "careless and reckless."

I had the same thing happen to me a number of years ago, in a taildragger. One brake was crapping out on a regular basis, and I flew it to another airport nearby for MX. I was comfortable with it at the time, although I knew there was a little risk involved.

One other thought - an inop brake doesn't just effect total landing distance. What if a deer/truck/pedestrian appears in front of you on takeoff or landing roll? If you really need to stop NOW with completely assymetric braking, you may go for a ride off the side of the runway.

[RABIRZA69]

step 1. open door

step 2. Stick foot out

step 3. Place foot on ground

Step 4. Push for break

step 5. relax pressure for less break

step 6. Pray

[frog_flyer]

Originally Posted by RABIRZA69

step 1. open door

step 2. Stick foot out

step 3. Place foot on ground

Step 4. Push for break

step 5. relax pressure for less break

step 6. Pray

step 7. have passenger stick hand/head out window as speedbreak

[mtsu_av8er]

JRH, that's a tough situation!

Personally, I'd have flown the airplane to a MX base, unless there was a Fed on the plane when I last landed, and knew that one brake was almost out.

A 182 or 206 even, with NO brakes, can be stopped in 1500-2500 feet, no problem. If you work it a little bit, maybe even less. A 152? 1000 feet. Of course, that's why we practice these things - regularly . . . right?

Now, don't let anyone pressure you into flying an aircraft that's not airworthy. If you really feel that it's unsafe, then never fly it. But, if it's something that you can fly, without breaking any regs . . . well, I won't say anymore.

[jrh]

Well, to add a few more details to the situation:

I'm very comfortable handling a plane on one brake. I had no problems during the landing at my home base, after all. I've also taught brake failures to students and had them rollout after landing without touching the brakes just to show them how little distance is actually used. I'm not really worried about taking a routine flight with one brake inop. Those who know me know I'm a practical, get-the-job done, real world pilot, and I'm not a 250-hour newbie CFI from a big name flight academy (not meaning to start any wars with that comment, just saying...).

I agree with the idea of consulting old timers, and just so everybody knows, I did call a couple. One guy has 4500+ hours, 3000+ of which came from working as a freight dog at Ameriflight. He said he would've handled it the exact same way, and shame on the FAA for screwing a guy for trying to do the right thing by getting a permit. The other guy, the operator of the aircraft who said I made the right call, is a retired freight dog/charter pilot with 9000+ hours. I admit I called these guys after the fact, but they still confirmed my line of reasoning.

To answer a few comments about if the plane is technically airworthy, or if I would've been breaking a reg to fly it, no questions asked...think about this: Brakes are required equipment in the equipment list for airworthiness. Trust me, I checked. No matter if I called the FAA or not, it'd be breaking a reg to take off with it.

What this situation came down to for me was, why am I sticking my neck out on the line? I'm contracted to be a CFI, not a test pilot or mechanic. I just don't see any pressing need to assume the risk. As L4L said, there's always the possibility of an aborted takeoff or other need for high speed braking, which was one of the reasons the FAA guy told me he wouldn't issue a permit.

And of course, as others have mentioned, how would I explain my decisions to an investigator after an incident? "Yeah, uhhmmm...yeah....I didn't think I needed a brake for this one flight, I thought I could handle it." That's a good way to look like a goof in the accident report.

[towhook]

Originally Posted by jrh

And of course, as others have mentioned, how would I explain my decisions to an investigator after an incident?

"It was working when I took off."

[jrh]

Originally Posted by towhook

"It was working when I took off."

I don't think lying to a federal authority is a good idea.

Of course, if you meant to add a , then it's all good.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by towhook

"It was working when I took off."

It's remarkable how much stuff breaks at a mx base, isn't it?