Multi Engine time

[bdhill1979]

I am sure this has been covered in one way or another before but I am at a point in my training that I need to figure out just which direction I am going to take. I am going to finish my instrument rating within the next few weeks, (weather permitting) and am planning on jumping right into my multi rating.

My question is, if I have the money (from a student loan) will paying for 200 hours of multi time be beneficial to me or should I do what my flight school thinks I should do and pay for all of my time in singles, get an MEI and instruct for them for a few years to build up the same amount of time?

PS I currently have 124 ASEL, 1.9 AMEL, and like I said, instrument rated by the end of the month or so.

[riot shields]

whatever you choose, it wont be as easy as you might expect.

if you get 200 hours of multi, is this going to be incorporated in your commercial training? or is this going to be time building with somebody else?

there really isn't a reason to get 200 multi this early, doubtful many people will hire you. and by the time you get any decent TT your multi will be more than a year old. im not sure how airlines take 'recency' of multi time, but from what i hear they like to have a good chunk within the previous 6 months of your interview.

[DE727UPS]

You don't need 200 hours multi this early on. I'd get your SE ratings and CFI and instruct to build time. Once you hit 800 hours, or so, you can take another look at it and decide which way to go. Pay for a bunch of multi to accelerate things towards a regional or stick with the CFIing, get 1200 total, and go 135 freight.

[bdhill1979]

I am looking to incorporate this as the core of my commercial training. I will still be getting my CFI certificates. I just see dozens of CFI's at my flight school that are not getting any multi time at all. Three that I have talked to said that they havent flown one hour of multi since they got rated because they spent all of their money on single time and there just arent enough multi students to go around. I see many job postings with fairly low TT requirements, but almost all require 50-100 or more multi time. Simply put I am looking to avoid relying on flight instruction alone as a way to build time.

[gomntwins]

If you decide to go the route of buying your multi time I would highly recommend holding off on some of it. Some airlines want more than just the time... they also want you multi current and proficient (more than 3 takeoffs and landings). taking a year or more off from flying a multi wouldn't be as beneficial as buying in increments, or at least holding off on that last five or then hours until you're competitve to an airline.

[ChrisH]

I plan to build the 1200 TT and fly 135 freight for someone like Ram Air, or Flight Express. I think having some quality Multi-time is key as well, as opposed to just buying 200 hours of it, and going for some leisurely cross countries, or what have you. To be honest with you, there is not much opportunity to build ME time where I live, as far as instructing. I am not even sure if I will get my MEI. In the end, I will probably not use it, and thus it would really be a waste of money. But, I'll have to see when that time comes.

[bdhill1979]

I think people are getting the impression that I intend to buy 200 multi all at once and then pray that someone hires me. No, This will be spaced out over the next year and a half as I get CFI, CFII, and eventually MEI. What I am trying to figure out is if spending the money to buy the time is just going to be a waste or not.

[gomntwins]

there are a lot of variables. Are you opposed to cargo? if so, you'll need multi. If you want cargo, you can get a job with 15-25 hours multi. You wanna fly a 1900? you'll be able to get right seat in a 1900 for low pay at an airline with 50-75 multi. You wanna fly an RJ at a crappy company or a turboprop at an ok airline? at least 100 multi. You wanna have the choice of whoever? At least 200 hours multi. That'll tell you how much multi you need, roughly. Now, how do you wanna get it? It depends on the flight school you work at. Myself, I was the only MEI at the first flight school I worked at for 8 months... I built a lot of multi time. Depending on where you live depends on if having your MEI will get you what you want/need. Depending on the flight school you work at as well depends on multi students. You get a job with ATP I probably wouldn't recommend buying time. You get a job at an FBO with a 152 and a 172 only, you'll probably need to buy. Only you know the variables. Also, your finances may or may not be an issue. You've got to look at your fnear uture realistically and go from there.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by gomntwins

You wanna have the choice of whoever? At least 200 hours multi.

That is what I am shooting for, I am not opposed any type of flying or low pay rates. I just want to fly for a living and get there sooner rather than later.

[Murdoughnut]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

That is what I am shooting for, I am not opposed any type of flying or low pay rates. I just want to fly for a living and get there sooner rather than later.

You should go over to flightinfo.com and say that - ha!

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

You should go over to flightinfo.com and say that - ha!

never been to that site, why would that be funny?

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

That is what I am shooting for, I am not opposed any type of flying or low pay rates. I just want to fly for a living and get there sooner rather than later.

Not opposed to low pay??? Good thing there are companies like MESA, Great Lakes, and Scenic for you to go work at. I, on the other hand, am interested in making a decent living and refuse to sell my skills to the lowest bidder. I invested way to much into this career.

[bdhill1979]

That was not meant as I will work for dog food, but that I understand that everybody has to work for meager wages to get their start. I have no illusions about making real money for quite awhile.

[gomntwins]

You wanna buy time... 100 hours multiplied by 200 dollars per hour (using rough estimates for multis... I realize you can find cheaper) equals $20,000. Split between two would be $10,000. If you want 200 hours you're looking at between 20-40,000 dollars (depends on if you decide to split time or not). That's a lot of money for getting your airline job a few months earlier than without. You say you're not opposed to cargo, but want the 200 anyway. If you pay for 200 hours and decide on a job at Ram Air or something similar that required 15 you just threw at least 1 full year of pay out the window (if not two after loan payments, etc) for hours you really didn't need. Figure out what you want to do than aim for that goal. don't invest any more money than you need to (you'll obviously need the commercial multi, so subtract 10-20 hours out of your 200). When you get 1000 hours and have a better idea what you want to do, make the decision then. Buying time with no real goal in mind is an extremely big risk. If you're worth millions and money's not an issue, that changes everything. If that's the case buy however much multi time you want.

[riot shields]

gomntwins has a lot of good info.

i was looking into buying 100-200 hours of multi time as well once i hit around 800 hours.. (this was when i was just finishing my cfi). but i figured i'd wait and seeee if something would come my way. well around 900 hours i decided to move from ri to tx, luckily the flight school i got a job with got a multi... and... i am currently the only MEI at the school. lucky or what? saves me from PAYING for more flight time. a lottt more.

just work on your tt as an instructor and wait to see if something comes your way, if it doesnt, go work at a cargo company for a year or maybe less. recency matters from what i've been told, so theres no reason to get the time now.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by gomntwins

You wanna buy time... 100 hours multiplied by 200 dollars per hour (using rough estimates for multis... I realize you can find cheaper) equals $20,000. Split between two would be $10,000. If you want 200 hours you're looking at between 20-40,000 dollars (depends on if you decide to split time or not). That's a lot of money for getting your airline job a few months earlier than without. You say you're not opposed to cargo, but want the 200 anyway. If you pay for 200 hours and decide on a job at Ram Air or something similar that required 15 you just threw at least 1 full year of pay out the window (if not two after loan payments, etc) for hours you really didn't need. Figure out what you want to do than aim for that goal. don't invest any more money than you need to (you'll obviously need the commercial multi, so subtract 10-20 hours out of your 200). When you get 1000 hours and have a better idea what you want to do, make the decision then. Buying time with no real goal in mind is an extremely big risk. If you're worth millions and money's not an issue, that changes everything. If that's the case buy however much multi time you want.

That is the kind of input I am looking for, thank you. I do intend to split the time and the time here for a multi is a bit under $200 per hour. I realize that it is a fairly large sum and no I am not worth millions. My thought process on this is; I am paying approx $90 per hour for a single, if I split time in a twin at about $175 per hour it roughly equals what I am paying for single time. The idea being, pay roughly the same sum of money for hours that count three ways, towards my commercial license, towards Multi Time, and towards total time, instead of just total time.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by gomntwins

You wanna buy time... 100 hours multiplied by 200 dollars per hour (using rough estimates for multis... I realize you can find cheaper) equals $20,000. Split between two would be $10,000. If you want 200 hours you're looking at between 20-40,000 dollars (depends on if you decide to split time or not). That's a lot of money for getting your airline job a few months earlier than without. You say you're not opposed to cargo, but want the 200 anyway. If you pay for 200 hours and decide on a job at Ram Air or something similar that required 15 you just threw at least 1 full year of pay out the window (if not two after loan payments, etc) for hours you really didn't need. Figure out what you want to do than aim for that goal. don't invest any more money than you need to (you'll obviously need the commercial multi, so subtract 10-20 hours out of your 200). When you get 1000 hours and have a better idea what you want to do, make the decision then. Buying time with no real goal in mind is an extremely big risk. If you're worth millions and money's not an issue, that changes everything. If that's the case buy however much multi time you want.

However, if your goal is to fly for someone like Ram Air, having too much multi time can be a negative. They say directly on their website in FAQ, that they prefer people with little ME time, because they stay longer, to build the time there.

[Adam2006]

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

You should go over to flightinfo.com and say that - ha!

lol

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

However, if your goal is to fly for someone like Ram Air, having too much multi time can be a negative. They say directly on their website in FAQ, that they prefer people with little ME time, because they stay longer, to build the time there.

Again, the kind of input I am looking for, thank you.

[juskl]

Allright, I need some clarification on a similar issue to this. Safety pilot logging can now only be done as an SIC and not PIC correct? Still counts to total time, but not as PIC. The only way that both can log PIC is if one is an MEI and giving instruction to someone whom holds a Multi Engine Rating. For instance instrument training in a multi or some other valid function. I know just a little bit ago things were different, but that there have been changes. Am I right or wrong??

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by juskl

Allright, I need some clarification on a similar issue to this. Safety pilot logging can now only be done as an SIC and not PIC correct? Still counts to total time, but not as PIC. The only way that both can log PIC is if one is an MEI and giving instruction to someone whom holds a Multi Engine Rating. For instance instrument training in a multi or some other valid function. I know just a little bit ago things were different, but that there have been changes. Am I right or wrong??

Tha FAR is pretty vague about this, I just read a letter that my instructor had from the FSDO saying that as long as both pilots are rated for the aircraft both may log PIC if one is under foggles and the other is safety pilot. In effect, one is PIC under Simulated instrument and the other is PIC under VFR.

[DE727UPS]

That is correct. I think it's a fishy way to build time. Being the safety pilot is hardly quality PIC multi-time. Skywest, for example, doesn't allow this sort of time to count towards their mins (as told by an ex-Skywest interviewer who is now at Alaska).

At the same time, everyone is doing it, so you won't be alone.

Don't forget, the minute the foggles come off or the minute you go into actual IFR, there is no need for a safety pilot and it's not legal to log the time. It's a stupid loophole in the FAR's, if you ask me.

[Murdoughnut]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

never been to that site, why would that be funny?

Many guys over there take great offense to pilots who say they don't care about low pay. Some are just trying to make the industry a better place, but others are people who see aviation as simply a job, and really never had any passion for it. Nonetheless, I was being sarcastic - I really wouldn't say anything like that on fi.com

[gomntwins]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

That is the kind of input I am looking for, thank you. I do intend to split the time and the time here for a multi is a bit under $200 per hour. I realize that it is a fairly large sum and no I am not worth millions. My thought process on this is; I am paying approx $90 per hour for a single, if I split time in a twin at about $175 per hour it roughly equals what I am paying for single time. The idea being, pay roughly the same sum of money for hours that count three ways, towards my commercial license, towards Multi Time, and towards total time, instead of just total time.

This isn't necessarily a bad idea... however... why not split time in the single? You're now spending $45.00 an hour and you're saving yourself a lot of money. Getting multi time isn't a bad thing by any means, but it all comes down to that whole cost benefit crap. Is it worth it money wise? I split around 60 hours of multi. I had 190 hours multi (mostly instructing time) when I got my 135 job flying a twin cessna (my current job). My company likes to see 50 hours of multi, but they've hired people with 15 (it's a relatively small company, but we do have a lot of metroliners, so it's more than just an entry level cargo job). I would've gotten the job with 130 and not had to buy the time. I did what you're thinking of doing and split the time to get to commercial mins and wish now I would have that extra money. I will say that having the 190 most likely helped me get an interview with Pinnacle... but they didn't like my lack of recency (I took a different instructing job, my 2nd instructing job, flying only singles because it was salaried... I could then afford to eat). Needless to say I didn't get the job with Pinnacle (there were probably other factors as well). No big help other than the interview experience. The other thing to think off is the quality of time. It's kinda PIC, but not really, as DE727 mentioned. You run the risk of splitting time with someone incompetent and getting yourself into a dangerous situation. You'll only have a couple hundred hours under your belt, so it'll be hard for you to step in if something goes wrong... at least it would've been for me at that point. A lot of people don't even use the hood when splitting time... you can't log that... a lot of people do, but it's not ethical. You also can't force the person you're sitting with to put the stupid hood on... what do you do in that scenario? Land and split the cost anyway? I'm not saying don't do it, you just have to figure out if the risks and the costs are worth it to you. I thought it was worth it when I had a few hundred hours and I ended up wasting my money. At the same time, I know it's worked well for a lot of other people. Just don't invest too much money in any idea until it's fairly good bet that it'll benefit you... hindsight's the only thing that'll tell you if it was the right decision. Try to make as informed and logical of a decision as you can.

[bdhill1979]

that makes a lot of sense, I am still definately going to get the rating but after some of the responses I think getting all of that time is probably not going to be all that beneficial. I greatly appreciate all the responses, this is the sort of input I need to figure out which direction is best.