Airline Approaches

[blakman7]

What other approaches do pilots use these days in the airlines besides the usual ILS and LOC/DME? Do airline pilots do GPS or NDB's? I imagine that NDB's aren't really done anymore and if they are, it is at a municipal or regional airport in some B.F.E town.

[BobDDuck]

Or opspecs prohibit NBD approaches. It's rare to shoot much other then an ILS or a LOC but there are a few places where a VOR and GPS approach gets done. And then of course there is the lovely LDA into Washington DC.

[ATPInstructor]

Surprisingly, charted visual approaches are sometimes used as in the Parkway visual into KJFK. Circle approaches, although a terrific way to save taxpayer money and get the job done, are usually outlawed for operators. NDB approaches are still common in Canada if you are flying small equipment (<100,000lbs) into small (<7000') runways.

Lastly, although ICAO seems to be more progressive than our lumbering FAA, Europe is surprisingly behind on incorporating GPS technology.

Unfortunately, all the approaches still have a place in pilot training and only subjective logic makes the case for dismissing the old technology

[B767Driver]

In the 757/767 we did VNAV approaches. Basically, you plugged in the descent gradient into the FMS and it made a non-precision approach just like an ILS.

There's some newer technology out there flying RNP (required navigation performance) approaches. These are basically RNAV/GPS type approaches where the onboard navigation system monitors the quality of the navigation track. In the future...I think you will see alot of RNP type navigation.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by ATPInstructor

Unfortunately, all the approaches still have a place in pilot training and only subjective logic makes the case for dismissing the old technology

Shouldn't they have a place in pilot training? You can't train a new pilot expecting that the pilot is going to ONLY ever fly for an airline . . .

[seagull]

Internationally there are still a fair number of NDBs out there. We still do them, technically speaking.

[jtrain609]

We're still doing NDB approaches. In fact I should a single engine NDB approach in the box the other day.

[zmiller4]

Half the islands in the Carribbean only have NDB approaches. So for airlines like Carribbean Sun and American Eagle, there's a lot of times when the NDB is the only option.

[jtrain609]

I didn't know that you actually had to shoot approaches down there

EDIT: BTW, shooting an NDB approaches with an RMI is cheating! And dual crew? That's cheating too. Autopilots? Cheating also.

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by ATPInstructor

Surprisingly, charted visual approaches are sometimes used as in the Parkway visual into KJFK.

Surprisingly? We use charted visuals all the time. SFO, MRY, OXR, PDX, SEA to name a few.

[casey]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

Surprisingly? We use charted visuals all the time. SFO, MRY, OXR, PDX, SEA to name a few.

DCA, JFK, LGA, PWM also. And if a charted visual is surprising, perhaps it is more surprising to hear we just get cleared for a straight up "visual approach" and dont even have the luxury of a charted flight patch and suggested altitudes

[Seggy]

The T-Prop guys do NDBs in some of our wonderful destinations.

[GaTechKid]

The Expressway Visual to LGA is quite possibly the greatest approach on the east coast. It really doesn't get any better than getting vectored over downtown Manhattan and Central Park.

[Comair 100ER]

What's an NDB? ;-)

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

The Expressway Visual to LGA is quite possibly the greatest approach on the east coast. It really doesn't get any better than getting vectored over downtown Manhattan and Central Park.

While the Expressway Visual has it's moments, downtown Manhattan and Central Park aren't any of them. The River Visual comes across Manhattan, but if you come across Central Park on that one you're doing it wrong and the possibility of you landing on 13 isn't too good.......

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

The Expressway Visual to LGA is quite possibly the greatest approach on the east coast. It really doesn't get any better than getting vectored over downtown Manhattan and Central Park.

The Expressway Visual doesn't take you over the Hudson...as you are describing. I think you're getting vectors for the LDA A for 22. But I agree...one unbelievable view of the mythical city.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by blakman7

What other approaches do pilots use these days in the airlines besides the usual ILS and LOC/DME? Do airline pilots do GPS or NDB's? I imagine that NDB's aren't really done anymore and if they are, it is at a municipal or regional airport in some B.F.E town.

Outside of the ILS/LOC and VOR we are only Authorized for NDB's. Everything else is prohibitted by our OPS SPEC including circling, except circling in VFR conditions.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I didn't know that you actually had to shoot approaches down there

EDIT: BTW, shooting an NDB approaches with an RMI is cheating! And dual crew? That's cheating too. Autopilots? Cheating also.

Sounds like your jealous of modern cockpits that make NDB's almost as easy as a VOR

[CapnJim]

What's an NDB?

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I didn't know that you actually had to shoot approaches down there

EDIT: BTW, shooting an NDB approaches with an RMI is cheating! And dual crew? That's cheating too. Autopilots? Cheating also.

Yeah, I flew something like five approaches in seven months. There's a lot of visuals. But that just means that you're all the more proficient when you have to fly one!

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by ATPInstructor

Europe is surprisingly behind on incorporating GPS technology

Its a lot harder to justify a subscription-based navigation system (i.e., Galileo) if you already have a bunch of procedures defined using other, free, global positioning systems. I suspect a lot of their lag is politically motivated ... you know, the European Way (and I don't mean Rumsfeld's "Old Europe").

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Sounds like your jealous of modern cockpits that make NDB's almost as easy as a VOR

Pretty much

[GaTechKid]

While the Expressway Visual has it's moments, downtown Manhattan and Central Park aren't any of them. The River Visual comes across Manhattan, but if you come across Central Park on that one you're doing it wrong and the possibility of you landing on 13 isn't too good.......

The Expressway Visual doesn't take you over the Hudson...as you are describing. I think you're getting vectors for the LDA A for 22. But I agree...one unbelievable view of the mythical city.

I went back and googled several maps of NYC to make sure I wasn't mistaken. What I'm talking about isn't part of the actual Expressway Visual. When you approach NYC from the Northeast LGA approach usually tells you to go direct LGA VOR and then proceed on an outbound heading of something like 220. Anyway, you look out to the right and see White Plains and feel sorry for the Colganites based there. You get vectored over Central Park and along the Hudson over downtown and lower Manhattan. Right over lower Manhattan is when they tell you to turn left direct the tanks, cleared for the approach. The tanks are the beginning of the Expressway Visual, of course.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

What's an NDB?

Not Drinking Beer.

Its a term used by pilots when you're the designated driver.

[kellwolf]

Had to do an NBD approach during training, but haven't had to do one in the real world. Even then, it's using the FMS, so it's "cheating." An NBD approach used to be part of the checkride at PCL until they decommissioned the beacon.