Gojets 2x, this time for pinnacle

[wheelsup]

Saw this over on "the other" forum:

Historically, the pact between the two has been that Northwest provides Pinnacle with planes and guarantees a certain level of business, but Pinnacle can fly for no other carrier.

Under the new deal, Pinnacle expects to be free to seek other business, creating potential, Trenary says, for Pinnacle to become a larger airline.

"Let's just say, things could be very good," he said.

Pinnacle plans to create a subsidiary airline to cover the outside growth. It is promising its pilot union all Northwest flights, including any new routes Northwest adds as it emerges from bankruptcy.

That rankles the pilots, who feel growth would be siphoned off to other pilots. "They have informed us at the negotiating table that those flights in the subsidiary will be manned by whatever pilots they wish, including nonunion pilots," said Wakefield Gordon, chairman of the Pinnacle master executive council. "We want our job security guaranteed from Pinnacle Corp. (the airline's holding company) as well as Pinnacle Airlines Inc."


From:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/...020633,00.html

Oh boy. Can you say either Go Jets, or mesa-type contract (ie when mesa signed that crappy contract it, in part, was to get scope from freedom).

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Oh boy. Can you say either Go Jets, or mesa-type contract (ie when mesa signed that crappy contract it, in part, was to get scope from freedom).

Now I know where the JetU guys are going to go.. There was a mention that the FO going through the JetU program starts at $14/hr. This might be how that will be done.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

Now I know where the JetU guys are going to go.. There was a mention that the FO going through the JetU program starts at $14/hr. This might be how that will be done.

Are you sure that isn't instructing? I would think so. I can't imagine the industry backlash from a 70 seat RJ FO making $14/hr. I don't even think mesa would do that.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Are you sure that isn't instructing? I would think so. I can't imagine the industry backlash from a 70 seat RJ FO making $14/hr. I don't even think mesa would do that.

JetU doesn't instruct. Train and straight to PCL!!!! PCL is even helping pay to go to JetU!

Sad isn't it??

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

JetU doesn't instruct. Train and straight to PCL!!!! PCL is even helping pay to go to JetU!

Sad isn't it??

I'm not sure if they are helping pay, I bet it was a marketing twist and they just lowered their cost. But that's just IMO .

But it is sad.

$14/hr for a 70 seater. Would people actually do this? I can't see it, honestly.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

From the Propoganda machine

....The President of Jet University was at Pinnacle last week and was encouraged to increase our max class size from 15 to 25...... In order to accommodate their request, they have increased their standing financial tuition assistance from $5200 to $8500........ Jet U matched Pinnacles increase and achieved a tuition incentive of $19,985 for the student.

Tuition Net of First Year Earnings and Reimbursement $10,536 Per flight hour $14 (based on 733 hours)

And yes I know $14x733=$10,262 not $10,536
Welcome to the bottom of the barrel.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

$14/hr for a 70 seater.

So do they still have to give a % to a union... It is becoming clear that they can't prevent the airlines from eventually doing what they want to do.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

So do they still have to give a % to a union... It is becoming clear that they can't prevent the airlines from eventually doing what they want to do.

I am thinking they are to go to the sub PCL and might NOT be union. Either that or PCL is considering it some type of personal loan to be paid back in the first year with a lower pay.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

From the Propoganda machine




And yes I know $14x733=$10,262 not $10,536
Welcome to the bottom of the barrel.

Maybe, I'm just saying I don't "believe" pinnacle is actually contributing to the cost of the "program". That's just me.

I would hope their union would have a FREAKING FIT if they were.

EDIT: nevermind, it looks like they are saying it costs you $14/hr to fly 733 hours (ie time building)

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I would hope their union would have a FREAKING FIT if they were.

EDIT: nevermind, it looks like they are saying it costs you $14/hr to fly 733 hours (ie time building)

I would hope the union would be looking into it as well.

Yes, my mistake on the $14/hr. That is your cost to the training based on the 733 hours you fly after payment.

Summary of Tuition and Earnings:
Course: Fast Track CRJ 200 Training Program$32,000
Less: Airline Funded Indoctrination and Operations Course $2,565
Less: Airline Funded CRJ 200 Systems Course $2,565
Total Course Price $26,870 (this is reduced to $19,xxx now)
Less: Estimated Fast Track Earnings as a CRJ200 FO $14,872
Less: Estimated Per Diem $1,462
Net Tuition After Earnings $10,536

First, I dont like having the Per Diem added as Income, ITS NOT INCOME!
Second, taking the $14,872/733 (there hour number)=$20.29 per hour

Kellwolf (or other PCL) is that a good hourly rate for first year FO????

[Toonces]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Are you sure that isn't instructing? I would think so. I can't imagine the industry backlash from a 70 seat RJ FO making $14/hr. I don't even think mesa would do that.

It's intersesting you mention "backlash in the industry" I don't think I have ever seen any examples of "backlash" from anyone. I bet all the airlines could pay minimum wage or even ask people to work for free and they would still have a pile of resumes on their desks the next day. I am surprised the airlines have'nt cut pay more than they already have.
I know this has been discused before, but the problem in the U.S is that it's too easy to become a commercial pilot. It's easy to get a loan, it's easy to find a school, and is easy to train someone to pass checkrides. Starry(sp) eyed pilot wannabes (myself included although now jaded) line up by the thousands to fork over tens of thousands of dollars for flight training so they too can get a 300k a year job flying a 747 to Europe 4 days a month. The airlines have nothing invested in you here. They want their applicants to have four year degrees, 1200/250, be 6' tall, 175lbs, 200 IQ, kiss babies, help old ladies cross the street, and do it all for ##### pay. Does anyone or should I say enough people say "screw this" and walk away from the industry? Hell no they go to Gulfstream or some other #####bag outfit just like them so they can lower the bar that much more for everyone else.
Meanwhile on the other side of the globe some chinese kid gets paid to go to flight school and goes straight to an A320 at 251 hrs. Same thing happens elsewhere around the world.
When I see people throw words like backlash in reference to the airlines in the U.S it makes me wanna laugh and have a drink. I am going to be thinking of all the industry warriors that have "drawn the line in the sand" for wage cuts over the last few years as I make my student loan payment.
No offense intended to you wheelsup. just had to rant a little

[adreamer]

just wondering about whether they are going to fly under compass logo? or completely different brand?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by adreamer

just wondering about whether they are going to fly under compass logo? or completely different brand?

Who actually owns the Compass certificate now?

[adreamer]

I don't know. I assume NWA still owns it

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by adreamer

I don't know. I assume NWA still owns it

I ask as JetU is using a CRJ200 Simulator in the DC area and it was discussed it might be one under the Compass certificate. Just connecting the dots.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by adreamer

just wondering about whether they are going to fly under compass logo? or completely different brand?

compass is WO of NWA, totally seperate from what pinnacle is trying to do.

Originally Posted by toonces

It's intersesting you mention "backlash in the industry" I don't think I have ever seen any examples of "backlash" from anyone.

There is some backlash against GoJet pilots. Whether or not it will continue is up in the air.

Does anyone or should I say enough people say "screw this" and walk away from the industry?

I agree. I'll be honest, I have previously never held a job making over $30k/yr. When I look at what I make as a second year FO, as sad as it is, it's the most $$ I've made to date.

That being said, now that I know what it's like to be making more money, you can bet I would've evaluated other options. Having more money (and the QOL to enjoy it) is great - I wish it started from day 1 in an RJ vs. a few years later (at minimum). There is a big difference in 30k vs. 40k. I'd assume there's an even bigger difference in 40k vs. 50k, 60k, 70k+, assuming you live the same type of lifestyle.

I think we all (in a way) got caught up with SJS. We all grew up thinking how cool it was to be flying boeings and airbi for the big bucks working for a legacy. "The" thing to do was CFI, fly night freight, go to a regional and get on with a major. Now "the" thing to do is gain experience to land a job at a fractional (fracs used to pay horribly when compared to their part 91 brothers). Alternatively, collect as many types as you can in as many biz jets are you can and find a cushy 135/91 gig. It seems pay scales and QOL is increasing considerably in that area because employers are trying to match the frac QOL and pay scale.

Now captains at the regionals don't want to move on to bigger and better. Many at my company now wish to stay put and wait for the golden carrot of UPS and FedEx. Frontier, SWA, CAL, etc. are all out of the question for the majority of them. That keeps movement down. Not a good thing for a regional.

That being said, things "may" change in the near future. Air travel is back up to historic highs, and carriers are starting to increase ASM's again. Who knows.

[kellwolf]

Compass is still owned by NWA. It's still up for debate if they'll get off the ground or if it's some sort of deal to get Mesaba and Pinnacle to slash rates. Last I heard, they were gonna finally start IAD-MSP with one 50 seater (to keep the cert active) and start flying 76 seaters in March. If they're gonna make the March deadline, they better get in gear with actually 1) deciding WHICH airplanes they want to use, 2) getting a training staff (including a CP) going and 3) actually ordering the planes.

The second cert at PCL is already done as far as I know. That was the talk around HQ when I was up there last week. The CERT is there, but no pilots or planes yet. Why? Under our current contract I don't think they CAN do it without pilots from our seniority list. That's one of the things management is trying to get is the authority to use whomever they want to staff the other cert. We get all the NWA flying, the other cert gets everything else they can get, at least that's the deal right now. Our union's already pointing to Freedom and GoJets as examples of where other regional operators have used the same shell game to shaft their employees, and the negotiating commitee has their heels dug in on this one. I'd wager we'd see smaller raises before we'd see Pinnacle Corp (the HOLDING company) operating that second cert w/o our pilots staffing it. Most of the guys doing the dealing already know if they get that, we'd wind up with less money anyway.

[higney85]

Pinnacle is a far cry from Gojets, there are no contracts to the company- Just the current ALPA contract that is being re-negotiated(STILL). The other cert has been here since pinnacle started- the predecessor was express 1, which is still held by pinnacle but has not been used in some time. I find it highly improbrable that Pinnacle would be able to operate express one without using the current senority list and ALPA contract, while the pay rates could be less (could use turboprops instead of jets) I doubt they can get around ALPA. I know, personally, if there is non-unionized fying- I'm Gone! I doubt many would stick around and take the "scab" on the record. In reality and the short term I think the pilots union will get a contract with only small pay increases (currently first year is about $21 an hour, second is only $24 I believe) and NW will renew a contract with PNCL. Beyond that I could see express 1 start up with the old saabs (currently parked) or possibly some 50 seaters (as some may recall NW parked 15 of the Crj's a while back that may be able to be negotiated for) and serve some market (have no idea here), but by no means do I see a non-Alpa work environment anywhere under the pinnacle management banner- there are just too many pilots that would act before the company could get scabs to keep things afloat. What I could see coming is a training contract of some sort. Attrition varies month to month but all signs show to about one class of 20-25 a month just maintains the attrition. While that may just be a sign of the times most pilots leaving are only in the 1st or 2nd year with the company- I believe the quote was "For each pilot that leaves before 2 years of service costs the company $30K.." I am sure that is why they can get a way with the lower wages and get the young/academy guys- with 300-500 hours they cant upgrade till 3000 hours and wouldnt have time to go elsewhere for a while, and when they did have time to go somewhere else they realize they hold a line, make OK money, and are getting close to hold senority for captain. Its kinda smart from Pinnacle Managements point of view, but I dont feel very good about guys with less than half my time flying my family around, I just recall how much I "thought" I knew, and how much I "learned" when going from 500hours to the 1000hours I have now- and I don't even begin to say that I am "experienced". Some of these guys in class have never even seen a flight level, nor anything that does 200kts on a ground speed. At least I wont be flying with them!

-Sorry for the rant, but I do think you get my drift-

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by higney85

Pinnacle is a far cry from Gojets, there are no contracts to the company

If you are trying to refute my post, I apologize. In no way was I trying to infer that.

HOWEVER, if you read the news article, it APPEARS as though pinnacle management is trying to create a GoJets type ordeal. That's what I was referring to .

As far as your attrition, I can see why people would leave after their first or second year (pay). Maybe the company should wake up.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by higney85

Pinnacle is a far cry from Gojets, there are no contracts to the company- Just the current ALPA contract that is being re-negotiated(STILL). The other cert has been here since pinnacle started- the predecessor was express 1, which is still held by pinnacle but has not been used in some time.

Not quite correct. Express I IS Pinnacle. They changed the name. The second cert has only been active for a short amount of time. They didn't get a new cert and call it Pinnacle, we're still flying on the same cert Express I was on with the Saabs, etc.

I find it highly improbrable that Pinnacle would be able to operate express one without using the current senority list and ALPA contract, while the pay rates could be less (could use turboprops instead of jets) I doubt they can get around ALPA.

Mesa and TSA would disagree with you there. But, thanks the the battles they've already fought, we've got ammunition to fight managment with. What they are proposing is to do exactly that: fly the second cert with non-union pilots......with 70 seat jets.

I know, personally, if there is non-unionized fying- I'm Gone! I doubt many would stick around and take the "scab" on the record.

You're only a "scab" if you cross a picket line. If you go over to GoJets (or Freedom before they were accepted back into the Mesa fold), then you're just union busting. I won't fly for the other cert if they're not the same seniority list, but then again I'd probably furloughed before long anyway....

In reality and the short term I think the pilots union will get a contract with only small pay increases (currently first year is about $21 an hour, second is only $24 I believe) and NW will renew a contract with PNCL. Beyond that I could see express 1 start up with the old saabs (currently parked) or possibly some 50 seaters (as some may recall NW parked 15 of the Crj's a while back that may be able to be negotiated for) and serve some market (have no idea here),

Saabs probably won't be coming back. It would take too much $$$ to get them current and get pilots current to fly them for the return, especially if Mesaba pulls through. The 15 CRJs in the desert are owned by NWA, not PCL. NWA wants 70 seaters since they can already oversell a 50 seater, and they want to phase out some of the DC-9 routes that DON'T fill up. So I wouldn't hold my breath on 50 seaters. I'm hoping for a lot more than just a "small pay increase," and by that I want some of the QOL issues they've got on the table fixed. I think it sucks they can just say "Oh, you thought you were going home? Well, you're essentially airport reserve for the next 5 hours." That's in the current management proposal, and it sucks. It's for "irregular operations," but they LOOSELY define irregular ops. I also want protection from an alter-ego airline and at LEAST enough of a pay increase that I'm not taking a cut with the new insurance they want to put into effect. There's a lot more going on than they probably are telling you guys in ground school.

but by no means do I see a non-Alpa work environment anywhere under the pinnacle management banner- there are just too many pilots that would act before the company could get scabs to keep things afloat.

Sad truth is that if it DID happen, there would be no shortage of resumes coming in to fly for the non-union carrier. I don't think GoJets has a problem filling classes, and with JetU pumping it's propaganda out, it's even more likely.

What I could see coming is a training contract of some sort. Attrition varies month to month but all signs show to about one class of 20-25 a month just maintains the attrition. While that may just be a sign of the times most pilots leaving are only in the 1st or 2nd year with the company- I believe the quote was "For each pilot that leaves before 2 years of service costs the company $30K.."

That I could see happening, but if they increased FO wage, they'd get a lot fewer guys leaving. If the put in the training contract, you're still gonna have guys breaking the contract and jumping somewhere else. Then you've got a legal battle to get your money, which may wind up costing even more.

I just recall how much I "thought" I knew, and how much I "learned" when going from 500hours to the 1000hours I have now- and I don't even begin to say that I am "experienced". Some of these guys in class have never even seen a flight level, nor anything that does 200kts on a ground speed. At least I wont be flying with them!

Maybe, but if the trend keeps up, we might be flying with someone LIKE them in a few years.

[higney85]

Well Kellwolf just broke down my post to the barebones! But I went back and looked and I had the wrong Idea of express I, I was under the impression that once the PNCL IPO was released the operating cert changed. The idea of saabs only took into play the fact that pncl still owns some (as of a few weeks ago at least) but they are parked in random spots. I could definately see the 70 seaters coming, but I do not see how that can be done without using guys from the seniority list! Time will tell, I am just interested in seeing a contract. If we get a contract (pilots), NW gives us another contract, maybe get the 15 planes back, and some 70 seaters on order... ok now i'm wishing again...

[kellwolf]

Here's how they could do it w/ o the guys on the PCL seniority list: Pinnacle Holdings owns both Pinnacle Airlines and Cert #2 (we'll call it NewCo for nostalgia sake). So, they get a new contract with Pinnacle that doesn't have a clause on the NewCo deal. Now, they sign an ASA with NWA for 70 seaters over at NewCo for rock bottom prices. Where to get the pilots to fly these? That's not a problem. Plenty of 500-600 pilots will jump. Might even get some street CAs in on the deal, too. Next thing you know, PCL pilots are getting furloughed b/c NewCo 70 seaters are replacing the 50 seat routes. They can do it because technically it's two different companies and two different seniority lists. It happened at Mesa with Freedom, it happened at TSA with GoJets, and it could definately happen at Pinnacle.

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Here's how they could do it w/ o the guys on the PCL seniority list: Pinnacle Holdings owns both Pinnacle Airlines and Cert #2 (we'll call it NewCo for nostalgia sake). So, they get a new contract with Pinnacle that doesn't have a clause on the NewCo deal. Now, they sign an ASA with NWA for 70 seaters over at NewCo for rock bottom prices. Where to get the pilots to fly these? That's not a problem. Plenty of 500-600 pilots will jump. Might even get some street CAs in on the deal, too. Next thing you know, PCL pilots are getting furloughed b/c NewCo 70 seaters are replacing the 50 seat routes. They can do it because technically it's two different companies and two different seniority lists. It happened at Mesa with Freedom, it happened at TSA with GoJets, and it could definately happen at Pinnacle.

Which goes to show how important a strong, united pilot group is. Win or lose, I think we have that or I would not be here.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

Which goes to show how important a strong, united pilot group is. Win or lose, I think we have that or I would not be here.

Aren't you glad that you don't work there!?

[SpiraMirabilis]

I'm getting sick to my stomache, I'll be praying for you PCL guys kell!