First Couple Year Pay

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Since the thread was closed. I did have a question on a post.

Originally Posted by wheelsup
Just an FYI, at my regional:

First year FO: ~$22k-24k
Second year: ~$40k
Third year: ~$42k
Forth year: ~$75k (upgrade is just under a 3 year time frame now, I am flying with a fifth year CA and in his 4th year he told me his W2 showed 75k)
Fifth year: ~$78k+

All pay does NOT include per diem.

I am guessing the first year is on reserves, but do you know the approx hours for the 2/3 year? I am thinking that the 2nd year might be alot of hours and 3rd back near min guarantee.

Trying to understand.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

Since the thread was closed. I did have a question on a post.



I am guessing the first year is on reserves, but do you know the approx hours for the 2/3 year? I am thinking that the 2nd year might be alot of hours and 3rd back near min guarantee.

Trying to understand.

Thats a pretty good pay scale. To be making $40k by your second year, I wouldn't complain about that too much. And the jump from 3rd yr to 4th yr is awesome. One of my choices for a Regional.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

I am guessing the first year is on reserves, but do you know the approx hours for the 2/3 year? I am thinking that the 2nd year might be alot of hours and 3rd back near min guarantee.

Trying to understand.

First year would be mostly on reserve to half reserve/half flying.

The second and third year pay is assuming you work (or credit, two different thigns) 95 hours a month. This is easily done, at least for me, depending on what I want to do that month.

Keep in mind, the 4th year number was when we were short of CA's. I'm not sure if someone who just upgraded would be able to pull $75k. You'd have to live in base to do it (because most of the trips by the senior guys aren't for credit hours, its for commutability). At one point last year, newly-upgraded captains were getting positive-spaced (and PAID) for commuting. The company was THAT short .

Payscale (50 seat FO RJ):
1: 23.81
2: 34.86
3: 36.11

[TexasFlyer]

Dumb question time... Sometimes I'm not the most perceptive, but what Regional are we talking about here?

[frog_flyer]

chump change


I don't want to hear you guys being wow'd by 40k at 2 years. get that #### up to where it needs to be....

[FlyChicaga]

I have just one comment about pay:

Don't look at the pay rates. Well, take a cursory glance at them, then move on.

Pay rates are only part of the story. Work rules is what is important in pilot contracts. Even if you have a high hourly pay rate, you're total pay can be surpassed by someone with a lower rate on other contractual items alone.

Telling pilots to "get those pay rates up!" is only part of it. I think more focus should be on work rule improvements, so we increase our quality of life and at the same time enjoy some pay benefits as well. What good is $200,000 a year as a CA if you only get eight days off a month?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Work rules is what is important in pilot contracts.

Ok, what would be the 1 work rule that you think needs to be changed?

I think (from what little I know) should be duty day hours. Safety first you know. I think, combined with it, is your total time on. You should get some type of credit for the time outside the cockpit.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Pay rates are only part of the story. Work rules is what is important in pilot contracts. Even if you have a high hourly pay rate, you're total pay can be surpassed by someone with a lower rate on other contractual items alone.

I agree work rules are important. That being said, it's pretty hard to put a number on what they are worth at a specific carrier.

Take steve's example at pinnacle. If they go over block by <15 minutes they don't get paid extra. Having block or better on a leg by leg (I'm assuming) could be worth a lot to expressjet or almost nothing depending on the time of year, the individual pairing, how many legs that day, etc.

The ~$9 difference in hourly pay is easy to compare though. How many lower paying carriers have better work rules than the higher paying ones? IOW, as a general rule, I propose that the higher the payrate, *most likely* the better QOL and work rules in place. It may not work on a micro scale but on a macro one it probably works more often then not.

[BobDDuck]

Over the sumemer I was over blocking about 4 hours per 4 day trip. Thats worth about $120 of pay for me. Say an average 4 day is worth 20 hours. That means my pay would have to go up $6 an hour to match the difference if we didn't have block or better. Add into that duty regs (which we don't have) and with all the sitting we do and 14 hour days worth 4 hours I could be adding another 6 or 7 hours per 4 day. That's another $7 dollars that my pay would have to go up. So, *if* we had complete duty regs in place I would end up making more then somebody who's hourly salary was $13 more an hour then me. That's only at second year pay too. Picture those numbers on a CA scale with a guy making $70 an hour.

[wheelsup]

You're assuming your pairings wouldn't change if you had a duty rig. Very rarely do we see any credit with our 2:1 duty rig, it really only becomes a factor if we get stuck on a day with low credit.

Because we do pretty much the same type of flying for the same carrier, I would say from my experience, your 14 hour duty days would shrink to an average of 8-10 like they are here. The duty rig is there to basically force the company to create pairings that are (more) efficient.

As far as over blocking 4 hours in 4 days...holy jesus. Do you guys go out and shut the cargo door and close the pax door to get the acars started, then open the doors back up??? I think the best 4 day I ever had barely made it past 4 hours overblock. I've completed 3 4-days in september and overblocked *maybe* 1 hour total, and it's not if we're not trying .

[FlyChicaga]

When I say work rules, I mean things controllable by contract. You can somewhat control duty days and what not (we do slightly in our contract), but more things that help increase your quality of life.

Some examples from me personally in September:

Block hours flown: 62.
Pay hours: 105.
Recurrent training days paid at 150% time because of "training on days off request" in contract: 3
Days "off" but still paid because my trip was dropped for new-hire OE: 4

I just had a trip dropped that starts tomorrow that I'm still paid for, even though at noon today I could be released if they do not have another pairing for me. If they do reassign me, I get paid for the higher of the trip dropped or actual trip flown. Now, after 12:00 noon, if I pick up a trip, that trip is paid as "add" pay, so I'm getting paid for a four-day trip worth 22 hours that was dropped, and another trip worth 20 hours on top of that picked up in open time. That is 42 hours for 20 hours work. My other option is to stay at home and get paid the 22 hours for doing nothing (knock on wood, they'll reassign me now! ). All quality of life enhancements.

Another example: As a CA, my hourly rate would be $56 on the 37-seat scale. However, for every minute flying a 50-seat jet, I would be paid at $64 an hour. We have 30 37-seat jets out of 274 aircraft. If you just take the hourly rate and add three zeros (a general way to determine annual pay), that contract improvement changes what would be $56,000 a year to $64,000 a year if I never flew a 37-seater. That is not chump change.

I am not knocking Comair with this statement, nor am I chest-pounding regarding our contract; however, I would say that even though our hourly rate was behind Comair's contract, I think overall we make well above them in terms of actual pay due to work rules and profit sharing. Comparing the two, you would think Comair is the higher paid by a simple Rate x Guarantee x 12 months. But airline pay is too fluid, and you must look at it from a different viewpoint.

Please do not think I am bragging in this post, because that could not be farther from the truth. I am simply trying to use personal examples to show how work rule improvements are an extremely important part of any contract. You cannot base things on the pay rate alone. This goes for all airlines, not just the regionals. This was something that I did not understand until I was hired here, and now that my eyes are open to this fact I would like to help other pilots realize this as well. I know for a fact that when a TA comes out, all pilots turn immediately to the "compensation" section to determine how they will vote. I think we need to look past that, and I think future regional contracts need to have a larger span of attack than just pay.

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

As far as over blocking 4 hours in 4 days...holy jesus. Do you guys go out and shut the cargo door and close the pax door to get the acars started, then open the doors back up??? I think the best 4 day I ever had barely made it past 4 hours overblock. I've completed 3 4-days in september and overblocked *maybe* 1 hour total, and it's not if we're not trying .

I over-block like this a lot too. Happens when you are based in the most delay-ridden airport in the country! I heart EWR. Funny thing is, I try to get under block all I can. I figure, they are paying me for the block anyways, so the earlier I am = less work = same pay. Why work more? I just get there early, relax, get a cup of coffee, and get the next flight out on time/early so we get in on time/early. There have been a few times where I am already in my seat on my flight to commute home when we are scheduled to block in on the last flight of a four-day.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

As a CA

First comments about hitting the books in another thread, now this.

When are you going to make the announcement offical??????

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

There have been a few times where I am already in my seat on my flight to commute home when we are scheduled to block in on the last flight of a four-day.

Well that goes without saying...overblock on every day except the last .

As far as comairs contract goes, I haven't seen it so I don't know what sort of work rules they have.

That being said, I don't know of any carriers that wouldn't pay you for dropping a trip for OE (maybe mesa? but then my statements on pay vs. work rules hold true). There are what, 2000+ lines there at XJT? How many trips are dropped for OE? 40? 60?. That's like a 0.3% chance of that happening every month. Using it as an example is good, but still. My first month of of reserve I credited 107 and blocked 59. And I was an extremely junior line holder.

[FlyChicaga]

There are about 900 lines systemwide at XJT. With 32 new-hires a month, that means you have a 3.5% chance of getting a trip dropped. However, we have pilots that specifically bid lines with check airmen to get trips dropped for OE. If you have a line an entire month with a check airman, and all are dropped, then you pick up open time on top of that... we are talking a lot of money.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

There are about 900 lines systemwide at XJT. With 32 new-hires a month, that means you have a 3.5% chance of getting a trip dropped. However, we have pilots that specifically bid lines with check airmen to get trips dropped for OE. If you have a line an entire month with a check airman, and all are dropped, then you pick up open time on top of that... we are talking a lot of money.

Yeah people do that here too. Mostly the top few FO's get 'em though. A number I heard for a record was 250 credit hours in one month. Yee haw.

[BobDDuck]

I'm too lazy to use multi quoting here... sorry.

Wheels, our ACARS triggers when the wheel rolls 2mph backwards or 5mph forward. No shutting doors and popping the brake for use. Trust me, we grind our teeth and pray for a contract change every time we see one of the white top RJs sitting on the gate with it's door shut and beacon on making money

I think I am overblocking because our block times are probably shorter then yours, which means I am actually loosing money in the long run.

As far as OE trips getting dropped? Our contract is probably one of the worst in that aspect. We used to just get pay protected and sent home or at our option be reassigned. Then, our stupid MEC (not the current one) signed a deal that pretty much gave captains a raise and allowed the company to protect the entire line a check airman bids. So basically if there are 90 lines in a base and 10 check airmen doing OE that month then there are only 80 FO lines. The stupid part is they end up burning reserves and junior manning people to cover the line when they don't have any FOs or new hire captains doing OE. It's pretty dumb.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Then, our stupid MEC (not the current one) signed a deal that pretty much gave captains a raise and allowed the company to protect the entire line a check airman bids. So basically if there are 90 lines in a base and 10 check airmen doing OE that month then there are only 80 FO lines. The stupid part is they end up burning reserves and junior manning people to cover the line when they don't have any FOs or new hire captains doing OE. It's pretty dumb.

I don't think you are alone. Scheduling tries to block out trips for use on OE although sometimes FO's make out. But when they make out they REALLY make out (like above) .

The acars thing is odd. It's a simple programming change in the software (at least here). We used to be able to start the "out" time vs. the "pushback" time by simply popping the brake and turning on nose wheel steering. The company quickly caught on and now to get the out time (and count toward FAR block) oil pressure has to be showing in at least one engine. I hope they don't take the pushback time away from us - that would suck - because we start getting paid from the pushback time. I've had 45 minute "pushes" before...

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

....... What good is $200,000 a year as a CA if you only get eight days off a month?

Payoff student loan debt. You might be working but at least you can afford to pay off debt and eat at the same time.

[kellwolf]

Our block out starts when the MCD is shut and the brake is released. I guess we actually DO have something better than other places!

Thing we're trying to get in the new contract include block or better pay and better work rules regard CDOs. They're not the top of the list (that would be higher FO pay and fixing that $&@^ second cert), but they're on the list along with some other QOL improvements. Some have even already been TA'ed, but I think they're pretty minor.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

IWe used to be able to start the "out" time vs. the "pushback" time by simply popping the brake and turning on nose wheel steering.

Not to start a war here, but was it changed because a few bad apples were abusing the system to get the clock started?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

Not to start a war here, but was it changed because a few bad apples were abusing the system to get the clock started?

The "clock" is still started when the door closes and brake is released. We are 100% paid for pushback time (in fact the US Air system doesn't even see a "pushback", they see an "out" time which is our "pushback" time).

HOWEVER, the company doesn't count pushback time as FAR block time towards the 30/7, 100/month, or 1000/year limits. So people that were timing out in november or early december using this way of starting the FAR block time will just have to work more.

They went thru various incarnations of starting the clock. Without acars, you can just call in your times, which is why you see express carriers with great on time performance (90%+). A little investigation shows they are calling in pre-fabricated times. Now with acars, they've gone thru various ways of capturing the different times.

But yes, it was changed because people were starting the FAR block time while still sitting at the gate. The company just wants to use us to the fullest extent. I don't know any other carriers that track pushback time for pay and FAR block time for FAR limits like we do. Remember FAR block time is when the aircraft is moving under its own power. Pushback doesn't count toward FAR block.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

The "clock" is still started when the door closes and brake is released. We are 100% paid for pushback time (in fact the US Air system doesn't even see a "pushback", they see an "out" time which is our "pushback" time).

HOWEVER, the company doesn't count pushback time as FAR block time towards the 30/7, 100/month, or 1000/year limits. So people that were timing out in november or early december using this way of starting the FAR block time will just have to work more.

They went thru various incarnations of starting the clock. Without acars, you can just call in your times, which is why you see express carriers with great on time performance (90%+). A little investigation shows they are calling in pre-fabricated times. Now with acars, they've gone thru various ways of capturing the different times.

But yes, it was changed because people were starting the FAR block time while still sitting at the gate. The company just wants to use us to the fullest extent. I don't know any other carriers that track pushback time for pay and FAR block time for FAR limits like we do. Remember FAR block time is when the aircraft is moving under its own power. Pushback doesn't count toward FAR block.

I have a question. Do most airlines have 13 bid periods, or 12?

Also, if a pilot is limited to 1,000 hours per year, how can average lines at many airlines be 85-95. 85(12)=1,020; 85(13)=1,105. If an airline has 12 bid period, wouldn't that limit lines to about 83, and 13 bid perioid would limit each line to about 77. Just trying to understand how it all works.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

I have a question. Do most airlines have 13 bid periods, or 12?

Also, if a pilot is limited to 1,000 hours per year, how can average lines at many airlines be 85-95. 85(12)=1,020; 85(13)=1,105. If an airline has 12 bid period, wouldn't that limit lines to about 83, and 13 bid perioid would limit each line to about 77. Just trying to understand how it all works.

Most are 12, Mesa is 13.

Remember, FAR block time is simply that, FAR block time. That is not what your pay is based off of.

I think when most people talk about how many hours they worked, they are referring to credit hours. Back in Feb I had a 2 day trip where I FAR blocked 0.7 for the entire 2 days (mx) but was paid almost 10 hours.

The next month I FAR blocked 59 hours for the whole month, but was paid for 107.

Like it was mentioned above, work rules help improve your credit time. Generally, the better airlines have more ways to increase your credit time without increasing your block time.

For me, it's about flying the least amount possible but getting paid the maximum. I have enough hours right now. I just want the money .

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

For me, it's about flying the least amount possible but getting paid the maximum. I have enough hours right now. I just want the money .

Isn't that a bad comment to make and then turn around and complain you dont make enought money (not you directly, but others have made similar comments)? What ever happened to getting paid for what your work (and realize I think you should be paid then entire time at the airport and in the plane!)