First Couple Year Pay

[OldTownPilot]

The "IOE double dip" went away at CAL. Under PBS system the FO trips are not awarded. Dad had a 2+ month vacation, actually had to pick up 2 trips to not dequal and have to go to IAH and the sims. He also worked "tripple time" once, had the second trip "bought" and then worked a third.

They do have a duty rig but it is nothing great. Ends up being about 17hrs for a 4 day europe trip (48 hr layover). They were at 50% DH pay too for a year. It would not surprise me if the work rules in XJT's contract were better than CAL's.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

Isn't that a bad comment to make and then turn around and complain you dont make enought money (not you directly, but others have made similar comments)? What ever happened to getting paid for what your work (and realize I think you should be paid then entire time at the airport and in the plane!)

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at

You're saying you DON'T want to get paid more for doing less?

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Most are 12, Mesa is 13.

Remember, FAR block time is simply that, FAR block time. That is not what your pay is based off of.

I think when most people talk about how many hours they worked, they are referring to credit hours. Back in Feb I had a 2 day trip where I FAR blocked 0.7 for the entire 2 days (mx) but was paid almost 10 hours.

The next month I FAR blocked 59 hours for the whole month, but was paid for 107.

Like it was mentioned above, work rules help improve your credit time. Generally, the better airlines have more ways to increase your credit time without increasing your block time.

For me, it's about flying the least amount possible but getting paid the maximum. I have enough hours right now. I just want the money .

So, if a line, lets say on average is 90, how many hours will someone typically credit, 90, or is it usually more? On average, at your airline, how many hours does a line holding pilot credit per month?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at

You're saying you DON'T want to get paid more for doing less?

You are sounding more like another union (that I work with) with that comment. Dont do the work so they will hire another to do the job. Take a 2 man job and have 4+ union guys on it. Cant do that with an airplane, but the comment sounded like the same I hear alot.

Not exactly on the work less paid more comment, but multiple people over time make the comment that pay sucks (it does) but then comment on 14+ days off that month. I understand its a game to play within the rules, but I also was brought up to believe "a good days pay for a good day of work". Then I hear on multiple threads over time about how others have gotten block time started early and the company has had to change proceedure because of it. That is the bad apples making it worse for the masses, IMO. Well, you agreed to the contract and the rules....play the game, but play fairly!

I will most likely get flogged (or worse) for that last comment.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

So, if a line, lets say on average is 90, how many hours will someone typically credit, 90, or is it usually more? On average, at your airline, how many hours does a line holding pilot credit per month?

It my case a 90 hour line would generally credit about 95-100, if everything went smoothly (ie no mechanicals, wx delays, etc.). In the past, I have been able to get more credit by bidding lineholders "reserve", therefore working less and picking up a tradeboard trip.

I really don't know what an "average" person credits. It really depends. Do you want weekends off? Are you a commuter? Do you bid for specific days off or overnights? Or do you bid simply for credit time? I went simply for credit time after reserve and as a junior FO I was doing 90-105 credit hours a month.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

You are sounding more like another union (that I work with) with that comment. Dont do the work so they will hire another to do the job. Take a 2 man job and have 4+ union guys on it. Cant do that with an airplane, but the comment sounded like the same I hear alot.

Not exactly on the work less paid more comment, but multiple people over time make the comment that pay sucks (it does) but then comment on 14+ days off that month. I understand its a game to play within the rules, but I also was brought up to believe "a good days pay for a good day of work". Then I hear on multiple threads over time about how others have gotten block time started early and the company has had to change proceedure because of it. That is the bad apples making it worse for the masses, IMO. Well, you agreed to the contract and the rules....play the game, but play fairly!

I will most likely get flogged (or worse) for that last comment.

Keep in mind we ARE playing fairly. We use the contract language to our advantage. Why is it my problem if the airplane breaks down? Why shouldn't I get paid? Was it my fault the plane was written up 3 times in a row but not technically fixed? No. Should I not be paid for weather cancels? It's not my problem there are storms in the area. Same goes for any other scheduling action - taking away a trip to do OE. Why should I not get paid for that? It was on my line, I bid it, it was awarded, I should get paid. If they were to take away a 4-day trip without pay I would lose $900+!!

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Keep in mind we ARE playing fairly.

OK, sounded like some were activating the wheel earily to get the block clock running, got caught, company changed policy so it didnt happen again.

We use the contract language to our advantage. Why is it my problem if the airplane breaks down? Why shouldn't I get paid? Was it my fault the plane was written up 3 times in a row but not technically fixed? No. Should I not be paid for weather cancels? It's not my problem there are storms in the area. Same goes for any other scheduling action - taking away a trip to do OE. Why should I not get paid for that? It was on my line, I bid it, it was awarded, I should get paid. If they were to take away a 4-day trip without pay I would lose $900+!!

Everything else, you should be paid for all that about. You bid the line. My comments were based on the comments of bidding for less time worked for more pay. I understand that you can and it is part of the game, it is just comments like that I think bring the profession down.

I think the airlines should change their operations to maximize a pilot to the FAA yearly number, pay the block to the pilot (or credit, or whatever you call it), base block from punch in at airport to airplane empty at the end of the day. (I think you should get paid between flights too!) That and reduce a duty day to 12 hours max. Might only make $10/hr as a first year FO, but would bank alot more then now, have more rest (as it is needed) and a more united work force.

Maybe I should move into management

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

OK, sounded like some were activating the wheel earily to get the block clock running, got caught, company changed policy so it didnt happen again.



Everything else, you should be paid for all that about. You bid the line. My comments were based on the comments of bidding for less time worked for more pay. I understand that you can and it is part of the game, it is just comments like that I think bring the profession down.

I think the airlines should change their operations to maximize a pilot to the FAA yearly number, pay the block to the pilot (or credit, or whatever you call it), base block from punch in at airport to airplane empty at the end of the day. (I think you should get paid between flights too!) That and reduce a duty day to 12 hours max. Might only make $10/hr as a first year FO, but would bank alot more then now, have more rest (as it is needed) and a more united work force.

Maybe I should move into management

Pilots do not necessarily get paid for their time at the airport, not flying, but in some sense, they do. That is why hourly rates are higher than what salary that hourly rate brings in. For example, a 2nd year FO making $40,000; Someone in a typical job, working 40-50 hours a week, two years into their career, and pulling in $40,000, would be making roughly $19 per hour. The 2nd year FO is making $35 per hour, which makes up for the time sitting at the airport, in some ways. BUT, I do agree some compesation for time at the airport, not flying, other than per diem, should be given. Even if only several dollars, it would still help a first year FO, especially.

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

What good is $200,000 a year as a CA if you only get eight days off a month?

While, like most folks, I want to get paid as much as possible for what I do, the comment above is kinda funny if you think about it....

Who in the non-flying world gets 200 grand AND 8 days off a month? At that pay scale, you're looking at a doctor or lawyer who likely works six days a week (sometimes seven) and 16 hour days, most likely. Given that there are 9 weekend days in September, that would mean that doctor only had FOUR days off!

Maybe the comment was meant tongue-in-cheek, and if so, I apologize. But make sure you take a look at the outside world, too.

Flyin's GOOD, man--enjoy it!

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

OK, sounded like some were activating the wheel earily to get the block clock running, got caught, company changed policy so it didnt happen again.

I must not of explained very well.

<check PM's>

As far as paying for time at the airport, we sort of do (indirectly). Here we have what's known as a "duty rig", which basically guarantees us 1/2 our duty time.

So if we were on duty for 12 hours, I would be guaranteed 6 hours of pay. That's the bare minimum what we are paid. Of course, if we fly more than 6 hours that day we are paid whichever is more.

There is a duty rig, trip rig, min day pay, and other things that go into what each day credits. It gets kinda complicated to explain over a forum.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

They went thru various incarnations of starting the clock. Without acars, you can just call in your times, which is why you see express carriers with great on time performance (90%+). A little investigation shows they are calling in pre-fabricated times. Now with acars, they've gone thru various ways of capturing the different times.

Funny thing about that. Not to bash Mesa... well, yeah, to bash Mesa... they are always calling ramp requesting push and calling their out time of 5 to 10 minutes ago. How can they be out if they haven't pushed yet? Grr.. And the funny thing is they STILL have the worst on time performance in the US Express system.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Fly4Pay

While, like most folks, I want to get paid as much as possible for what I do, the comment above is kinda funny if you think about it....

Who in the non-flying world gets 200 grand AND 8 days off a month? At that pay scale, you're looking at a doctor or lawyer who likely works six days a week (sometimes seven) and 16 hour days, most likely. Given that there are 9 weekend days in September, that would mean that doctor only had FOUR days off!

Maybe the comment was meant tongue-in-cheek, and if so, I apologize. But make sure you take a look at the outside world, too.

Flyin's GOOD, man--enjoy it!

Not to mention that very few people make anywhere close to that outside of aviation, to begin with, even many doctors do not. Many people work 12+ hours a day, sometimes 6 days per week, for the same salary, or less, than a regional captain; lets say $80K. I know a regional captain who fly's the bare minimum, purposely, makes $70K per year, and gets 16 days off per month. What other job is going to pay that for only working half, or not even half the month. It does, sometimes, help to put things into perspective.

The only down side, is the other 12-14 days of the month, he is probably never, or rarely home.

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

The only down side, is the other 12-14 days of the month, he is probably never, or rarely home.

That is a key point in my argument. Why make big bucks if you are never home to enjoy it?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

That is a key point in my argument. Why make big bucks if you are never home to enjoy it?

True, very true. Its NOT about the money!

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

There is a duty rig, trip rig, min day pay, and other things that go into what each day credits. It gets kinda complicated to explain over a forum.

Sounds like a killer EXCEL spreadsheet to make sure your getting what you deserve. That is why I like billing the client for every hour worked, now if I could just get my employer to pay me for ever hour worked, or actually for ANY hour worked.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

That is a key point in my argument. Why make big bucks if you are never home to enjoy it?

Hey, Chicaga, how do you like it over at XJT? How long have you been there? Just out of curiosity, how hard is it to bid IAH, and how senior is IAH? I understand EWR is the junior base where the new hires go. XJT is one of my top choices, but since I live down south, IAH is better than EWR. Just curious.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Hey, Chicaga, how do you like it over at XJT? How long have you been there? Just out of curiosity, how hard is it to bid IAH, and how senior is IAH? I understand EWR is the junior base where the new hires go. XJT is one of my top choices, but since I live down south, IAH is better than EWR. Just curious.

I thought CLE was more junior then EWR, or am I out in left field?

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

I thought CLE was more junior then EWR, or am I out in left field?

Maybe so, I could be wrong.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Maybe so, I could be wrong.

I could be too, that or knowbody wants to live in CLE.

Also is it still true that 1st year FO qualify for food stamps in NJ?

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Hey, Chicaga, how do you like it over at XJT? How long have you been there? Just out of curiosity, how hard is it to bid IAH, and how senior is IAH? I understand EWR is the junior base where the new hires go. XJT is one of my top choices, but since I live down south, IAH is better than EWR. Just curious.

EWR is junior for FOs, and IAH is junior for CAs. CLE is very senior for both. CLE is a shrinking base, and some say it won't be around in a few years. I don't know about that. If you want EWR or IAH, either one isn't that hard to bid right now I'd say.

[OldTownPilot]

CLE is uber senior on the CA side, not quite as much as an FO. IAH should be available shortly out of training....but it depends. Right now according to the new award IAH is the junior captain base, but it had been EWR for a long while.

oops what he said

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

OK, sounded like some were activating the wheel earily to get the block clock running, got caught, company changed policy so it didnt happen again.

Here's an example from my 3 1/2 day next week....

I'm actually FLYING (which is what they look at for FARs) about 13 hours next week. I'm getting PAID for about 16. Why? I've got 3 friggin deadheads.....

So, there's a totally legal example given by the company where a pilot can be paid a credit of more than he flies. 'Course I've gotta deal with "Oh, is that the same type of plane that crashed in Lexington? What happened with that? Are you guys doing anything differently since then? When do you get to fly the big planes?" I just wanna read my book.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Here's an example from my 3 1/2 day next week....

I'm actually FLYING (which is what they look at for FARs) about 13 hours next week. I'm getting PAID for about 16. Why? I've got 3 friggin deadheads.....

So, there's a totally legal example given by the company where a pilot can be paid a credit of more than he flies. 'Course I've gotta deal with "Oh, is that the same type of plane that crashed in Lexington? What happened with that? Are you guys doing anything differently since then? When do you get to fly the big planes?" I just wanna read my book.

How are things at PCL? That is another one of my choices, due to base (MEM). How are you liking it there? Also, what are competitive mins to get an interview with them?

[kellwolf]

It's about as good or bad as the rest of the regionals. Things are a bit topsy turvy right now with the contract negotiations. I got hired with a shade under 1000TT and 250ME. Most of the guys in my class were CFIs with anywhere from 700-1100TT and 100-500ME. Reserve in MEM isn't all that bad unless you WANT to fly a lot. Then it kinda sucks. The only downside is that I wind up deadheading to DTW most of the time to fly DTW lines that need covering instead of MEM.

I've heard that we're still interviewing, but all of the class dates for the remaining year have been cancelled. Who knows, though. That could change tomorrow or the next day or next week.

[ChrisH]

Will yall be looking at pay raises with the contract? How long is reserve in MEM?

Originally Posted by kellwolf

It's about as good or bad as the rest of the regionals. Things are a bit topsy turvy right now with the contract negotiations. I got hired with a shade under 1000TT and 250ME. Most of the guys in my class were CFIs with anywhere from 700-1100TT and 100-500ME. Reserve in MEM isn't all that bad unless you WANT to fly a lot. Then it kinda sucks. The only downside is that I wind up deadheading to DTW most of the time to fly DTW lines that need covering instead of MEM.

I've heard that we're still interviewing, but all of the class dates for the remaining year have been cancelled. Who knows, though. That could change tomorrow or the next day or next week.