Flying in Germany

[Gizmoflyer]

Is there anyone out there flying in Germany?

I am moving to Germany in by the end of 2006, and will be either looking for an American company to fly for with my FAA certificates, or a German company with the German (not JAA, just German) conversion. I am experienced enough to be employable. Any information or contacts would surely be appreciated.

Thanks a lot to all!

Danka

Deutsch Americaner

[nabd30]

I assume you have German citizenship, or citizenship of one of the original EU member states (Shengen states). Otherwise there is zero chance of getting any sort of flying job in Germany.

Your best chance--if you are a German citizen--would be to find a job with a low cost carrier in Ireland or the UK (Ryanair, FlyBe, easyJet). Ryanair & Easy both schedule their pilots such that you end up back at base almost every night...so you could probably get a german base, if not immediately, after a couple of years with the company. As you probably already know if you are a EU citizen (or at least you should know this by now if you are a European with the requisite qualifications)...the UK & Ireland have had more deregulation, which has resulted in many more southwest-type airlines springing up there. On the continent, with American quals, your best bet might be Alitalia, who hires American pilots on occasion...although they are also not hiring, and not doing very well financially.

What are your qualifications? I'm surprised that you are qualified for a major job, but that you don't know that there is no such thing as working for an American company on FAA certificates and being based in Germany. Also--maybe you were just anglicizing this--you spelled "thank you" wrong--it's "danke."

auf wiedersehen

[skyrunner1500]

Gizmoflyer:
What kind of flying are you looking into? Airlines? Executive charter? What type of license did you convert into an 'old' German license? Private, Commercial or ATP? That conversion could open quite some doors if it's still valid...

[Gizmoflyer]

Thank you both for your resposes.

Yes, my German spelling is probably even worse than my english spelling skill. Unfortunately everyone I know flying in Germany with N registration is not looking for pilots right now. However, there seems to be a few operators with US licensed pilots and N registration that are unofficially based in Germany, although officially based in the US. That is what I am really looking for at this point, financial preference. The folks I know there are checking around for me also, but so far there seems to be a pretty senior bunch in these slots.

It seems that the German license requires the same basic things as the JAA license. Some German pilots seem to think that converting to a German license is a bit easier because of the "local authority" in charge of some decisions in the process. Basically, I now know someone there who seems to be willing to help me with the process, etc.

One of you seems to think that there is no chance of getting a job there unless you have EU citizenship. I know other Americans who work there, and they seem to think that all you need is a salaried position to qualify for the work permit. It did work for them, but I know that does not necessarily mean in will for me. Perhaps I have missed something important. What is it that has led you to believe a guy would need EU citizenship to work there?

My qualifications are under 100 hours of turbine, 2500 total, 200 multi, ATP written with the practical test scheduled next month. I know that a major probably wouldn't look at me, but there are many operators there of various kinds. Airlines, Charter, etc. Ryan is the Gem, I agree. I'm not there yet unfortunately, experience wise. Alitalia sounds interesting, whether or not they are hiring today.

I may have citizenship there as an option at a point not too far in the future. This part I haven't really looked into yet, and it would only be considered if i could keep the US also.

Thanks again for the suggestions! Any and all information is more than welcome.

Gizmoflyer

[nabd30]

It's been a while since I've been on these forums...not sure if you're even still around Gizmoflyer, but here's what I know about the EU: no EU state will issue you a work permit unless 1) They can't find a local (in this case, German) citizen to fill the job, then 2) They can't find an EU citizen to fill the job (UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Italy...and the list goes on), and 3) Your prospective employer has to prove #1 and #2 to the local authorities.

So the reason I'm saying you need EU citizenship is that 1) there are plenty of pilots who are EU citizens who have your experience...and 2) Even sponsored programs like Ryan and Easy require EU citizenship.

To acquire German citizenship you have to renounce your US citizenship...if you're over 18, which I assume you are.

Even if you wanna do this...it will take 3 years if you're married to a German and 8 if you're not.

Of course, if you have a German parent, it's as easy as filling out a form and renouncing your US citizenship...which you can technically always get back if you were born here.

Don't despair about how unfair this is...the US is almost just as hard to get into as an EU citizen...although it's probably harder going US to EU b/c they have a much much higher unemployment rate (i.e. lots o' surplus people to fill any jobs that come open).

If you absolutely have to go there...get certified as an SAP programmer...that's about the only job I know of that the Germans have been issuing work permits to foreigners for.

Good Luck with your journey!!!

[jawright]

I do know that in Germany, the planes you'll be flying against are smaller, faster and more maneuverable.....just like the enemy aircraft....

[MikeOH58]

Originally Posted by jawright

I do know that in Germany, the planes you'll be flying against are smaller, faster and more maneuverable.....just like the enemy aircraft....

Oh Man....Thats the funniest thing i've ever read. LMFAO.

(PS- Dont mean to bring back a thread thats 7 months old!)

[PGT]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

Oh Man....Thats the funniest thing i've ever read. LMFAO.

(PS- Dont mean to bring back a thread thats 7 months old!)

Yea it gave me a good laugh as well.

[sweber1987]

I'm also a German citizen in the states looking to possibly fly for an international airliner in western Europe. Is that even possible?

[nabd30]

I thought this thread was dead! If you're a German in the US, you should go to one of those academies training Chinese and Indian students in California, ask for a work permit if they hire you as a CFI, work towards 1000 hours total time, save up for an A320 type rating while you're there, then go to Kingfisher Airlines or Jet Airways in India. After working 500 hours FO on type in India, if it doesn't look like you'll upgrade anytime soon go to Western Europe and find an FO job with a low-cost carrier such as Easy or Air Berlin. You might get hired.

Right now this wouldn't work, since I believe you gotta have 100 on type to get hired by the Indian carriers as an FO. But since they lowered their time on type from 500 to 200 to 100 over the last two years, and since they recently changed the law on foreign FOs coming in, it might not be long before they're bringing guys in with a type and 1000 total time. Or, God forbid, they might actually pay for a type rating on bond or something.

IMHO Asia, India, and the Middle East are the best alternatives to the US job market right now. If you look at the aircraft orders for those companies, and the number of locals able to fill the slots, you can see a trend. I don't think a country would change it's laws to allow work permits for PILOTS, especially FOs, unless that gov't actually forsaw the need to bring in foreign pilots. It would be a cold day in hell when the US or UK or EU started granting work visas to foreign pilots who weren't captains with 500 hours PIC on type.

[MFT1Air]

So, would you recommend an American doing this as well. . .as another option?

[Zondaracer]

To add on, I am a US citizen who recently married an EU citizen. Will I eventually be allowed to be hired by an airline as a pilot in the EU without actually becoming a citizen of an EU member nation? Is an EU work permit sufficient? thanks

[X-Forces]

Originally Posted by Zondaracer

To add on, I am a US citizen who recently married an EU citizen. Will I eventually be allowed to be hired by an airline as a pilot in the EU without actually becoming a citizen of an EU member nation? Is an EU work permit sufficient? thanks

Should be.

I have an EU work permit, and I am a permanant resident of Germany, but I am not a German citizen, however, I can work there without any further requirements.

[sweber1987]

Originally Posted by X-Forces

Should be.

I have an EU work permit, and I am a permanant resident of Germany, but I am not a German citizen, however, I can work there without any further requirements.

That should make it easier for me to work in Germany. I'm a citizen, but I haven't resided there in about sixteen yrs. What requirements would I have to meet in order to move back?

[granlistillo]

Originally Posted by nabd30

It's been a while since I've been on these forums...not sure if you're even still around Gizmoflyer, but here's what I know about the EU: no EU state will issue you a work permit unless 1) They can't find a local (in this case, German) citizen to fill the job, then 2) They can't find an EU citizen to fill the job (UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Italy...and the list goes on), and 3) Your prospective employer has to prove #1 and #2 to the local authorities.

So the reason I'm saying you need EU citizenship is that 1) there are plenty of pilots who are EU citizens who have your experience...and 2) Even sponsored programs like Ryan and Easy require EU citizenship.

To acquire German citizenship you have to renounce your US citizenship...if you're over 18, which I assume you are.

Even if you wanna do this...it will take 3 years if you're married to a German and 8 if you're not.

Of course, if you have a German parent, it's as easy as filling out a form and renouncing your US citizenship...which you can technically always get back if you were born here.

Don't despair about how unfair this is...the US is almost just as hard to get into as an EU citizen...although it's probably harder going US to EU b/c they have a much much higher unemployment rate (i.e. lots o' surplus people to fill any jobs that come open).

If you absolutely have to go there...get certified as an SAP programmer...that's about the only job I know of that the Germans have been issuing work permits to foreigners for.

Good Luck with your journey!!!

This thread is a little old, but this information is not totally correct. I am a US citizen married to an Spanish citizen, and I have the right to work anywhere in the EU. Key is getting the job offer. I have one, if i want to buy a 320 TR and convert my licenses. I think there may be a restriction that would limit it to FO job.
It is possible to make a routine renouncement your US citizenship, and the US state department will not consider that an abandonment of your us citizenship unless intent is shown. Dont serve in the parliment or military, if you dont want to lose your citizenship, as that is what is considered intent. Neither Country will recognize dual citizenship. It is my understanding, that some country do not recognize any renouncement of citizen as a point of law.make sure you talk to a specialized lawyer in this case, to know the consequences and pitfalls for each country.

[athomeinthesky]

I have dual citizenship of EU & America, two different passports, can work in both places. I am not sure but I don't think most other countries in Europe allow this.

You probably can get work visa easy if you have an employer that really needs you, which means you probably need some big flight time. I know Aer Arann in Ireland were sponsoring people that were captains on the ATR. There is also Ryanair who you could get on with maybe even if you had low flight time. The problem is that you will have to pay 25,000/Euro for a type rating and another $25,000/dollars to covert your licenses to JAA.

[granlistillo]

Originally Posted by athomeinthesky

I have dual citizenship of EU & America, two different passports, can work in both places. I am not sure but I don't think most other countries in Europe allow this.

Good post.
My son is dual citizen EU and US. It is not a matter of allow. There is no permission to ask. The US considers him a citizen and so does Spain. By treaty, the older EU members have to guarantee freedom of movement and employment, so if you are issued a visa based on family, you have rights. If you have a visa based on an employer, it is probably not transferable.

Some countries are more lenient. I know a US guy flying an AVRO that left a us regional (mesaba maybe?), and got a validation (not conversion) to fly an avro for a Ireland based regional. It is possible, but very difficult for us to go to eu, or vice versa, unless you are dual citizen or married to an eu citizen. And that is before you have to convert licenses/TR...

[nabd30]

granlistillo,

As I understand it, your rights to work in the EU are an extension of your spouse's right to work in the EU, and possibly later permanent residency or naturalization in Spain. Essentially, you "are one" with your spouse in the eyes of the law, so you didn't have to worry about proving that there were no qualified EU or local nationals to fill that 320 position.

My advice was tailored towards the poster who did not have an EU spouse. In his case, he would have to get work permission from one (any) of the EU Schengen states (more restrictions on '04 accession states). In HIS case, in order to get permission to work in Germany, his sponsoring employer would have to first prove they couldn't find a German national, and secondly prove they couldn't find a qualified EU national. You don't have to prove anything about local Germans being able to fill the position..

Concerning the US State Dept. renunciation of citizenship thing, it is true that you can always get the US citizenship back, but you do have to "renounce" it to get German citizenship.

I was only trying to emphasize to the poster that it is nearly impossible to just up and move to Germany and get a flying job unless you have some sort of work rights--either through nationality or marriage.

[granlistillo]

Originally Posted by nabd30

granlistillo,

As I understand it, your rights to work in the EU are an extension of your spouse's right to work in the EU, and possibly later permanent residency or naturalization in Spain. Essentially, you "are one" with your spouse in the eyes of the law, so you didn't have to worry about proving that there were no qualified EU or local nationals to fill that 320 position.

My advice was tailored towards the poster who did not have an EU spouse. In his case, he would have to get work permission from one (any) of the EU Schengen states (more restrictions on '04 accession states). In HIS case, in order to get permission to work in Germany, his sponsoring employer would have to first prove they couldn't find a German national, and secondly prove they couldn't find a qualified EU national. You don't have to prove anything about local Germans being able to fill the position..

Concerning the US State Dept. renunciation of citizenship thing, it is true that you can always get the US citizenship back, but you do have to "renounce" it to get German citizenship.

I was only trying to emphasize to the poster that it is nearly impossible to just up and move to Germany and get a flying job unless you have some sort of work rights--either through nationality or marriage.

Gotcha- Your absolutely right too, about the only way is to marry a really cute fraulein. I think too, that it might be better if he really wanted to go to Europe, to consider ireland who seems more lenient with employer based sponsorship. Interesting enough, you do have to renounce your us citizenship, but the us state department doesnt consider it renounced except in very extreme circumstances. Ive actually checked with a lawyer on this, cause the whole darn situation really messes with a binational family. Both ways...
you seem pretty sharp on the law.