large loans

[LoadMasterC141]

You are disagreeing that MOST (Greater than 50%) of tuition paid in the U.S. is done so by parents?

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

...and the fact that not many companies will let you work overtime anymore. To work 60 hours/week you'd need two jobs most likely.

Or work at an airpiort for one of the airlines. I average 60-70 hrs/ week durring the summer, with past 40 is time and a half. Durring the school year I work 20/week, and find time for a Mechanincal Engineering courseload, flying and quite a social life. Also to save money try living with the parents and commute from home. I would recomend taking a look at a 5 year plan at college (12 credits/semester) It will keep you a full time student and under you parents bennifits, Reduce the courseload to a manageable level, to fly and work. 15-18 credits work great if you dont need to have a job because your parents are paying for school. I will Graduate with $0 debt to student loans. My flying is subsidzed by my parents in that they own a flight school/ scenic operation and a couple of airplanes. I get free instruction from my dad, and the aircraft "at cost" i.e. Fuel, oil, engine and MX. Insurance and ramp fees have to be paid anyway so I dont have to pay that. Of course I get time in "the holes" in the schedule.

[deserteaglle]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

You are disagreeing that MOST (Greater than 50%) of tuition paid in the U.S. is done so by parents?

Is 50% most?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by deserteaglle

Is 50% most?

no, but:

Originally Posted by loadmasterC141

(Greater than 50%)

is.

[deserteaglle]

Is there any way I can save face?lol

[LoadMasterC141]

I did not mean to offend anyone with that statement. After rereading it, I can see my own personal prejudice.

I was mad at my parents for years for not contributing financially to college. However, once I actually got to college, I was proud of my ability to support myself and pay my own way. At community college, I was looked up to for it. When I moved to Cornell it was VERY different. I remember walking past the bursars office, where tons of Mom and Dads stood in line with huge checks in hand, while I walked down to the financial aid office to plead for money. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed like I was looked down on. I definitely saw that prejudice more. When I told people how I drove an 18-wheeler to Brooklyn at night to make ends meet, they turned their nose up at me, like I was lesser than them. Maybe it was all just my perception, but I am pretty sure it was not; There were a handful of other folks like me I hung out with that felt the same way.

At first, I was really bitter about it, especially seeing as the Ivy League is a competition for grades and someone with no worries also has tons of time to study. I studied in my sleeper waiting to unload.

After a while though, I began to feel sorry for the kids who had no idea what life was about yet, because they were sheltered from it. I am not saying that parents paying for college makes a bad person at all. I just feel that I benefited more from my parents shoving me out the door so I could learn on my own and I see others that have too; I thank them wholeheartedly for it today.

I saw the old bitterness come back in my last post though. Sorry again.

[amd87]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Well first of all loans are no good.... Evil is a great word to describe them. However I would go as far to say that most 4 year degrees (in state tuition) cost approximately 20k. Yeah there are various things such as grants, scholarships, that cut that cost down but if you pay out of pocket for your education it'd be about 20k for just your 4 year degree. And if you go to a private university even more then that (could be as much as 100k just for undergrad). Anyways my 2cents is this. If you can seriously get all your ratings and a 4 year degree for 40k and find some sort of scholarship to cut the cost some you are on a good track. Yes 1st year pay does stink but anyone out there cannot argue that a 4 year degree alone will run anywhere from 20k (Purdue University in state tuition) to 100k (Bulter University in Indianapolis). So just my 2 cents on this..... yes stay out of debt as much as possible but 40k for a degree in a non aviation related field and ratings I would have to argue is not too bad...... however if its only a 2 year Associate I'd re think it just a slight bit. And again all the ratings would need to be covered.

If you live in Indiana, go to Purdue hands down. I wish the instate schools where I am from were as nice and offered as much as Purdue.

[deserteaglle]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

I did not mean to offend anyone with that statement. After rereading it, I can see my own personal prejudice.

I was mad at my parents for years for not contributing financially to college. However, once I actually got to college, I was proud of my ability to support myself and pay my own way. At community college, I was looked up to for it. When I moved to Cornell it was VERY different. I remember walking past the bursars office, where tons of Mom and Dads stood in line with huge checks in hand, while I walked down to the financial aid office to plead for money. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed like I was looked down on. I definitely saw that prejudice more. When I told people how I drove an 18-wheeler to Brooklyn at night to make ends meet, they turned their nose up at me, like I was lesser than them. Maybe it was all just my perception, but I am pretty sure it was not; There were a handful of other folks like me I hung out with that felt the same way.

At first, I was really bitter about it, especially seeing as the Ivy League is a competition for grades and someone with no worries also has tons of time to study. I studied in my sleeper waiting to unload.

After a while though, I began to feel sorry for the kids who had no idea what life was about yet, because they were sheltered from it. I am not saying that parents paying for college makes a bad person at all. I just feel that I benefited more from my parents shoving me out the door so I could learn on my own and I see others that have too; I thank them wholeheartedly for it today.

I saw the old bitterness come back in my last post though. Sorry again.

It was a bit stinging, but not really a big deal. I can definitely understand where you're coming from, more power to ya.

[riot shields]

i think my loan amount is going to be somewhere around 100k after the next semester is over. i will have a 4 year degree (unfortunately i did my degree in aviation science, that pretty much gives me no back-up.. er.). I figure, i want to fly, and that’s all I want to do. i don't think about consequences enough i guess, but when the bills start rolling in t-minus 1 year i'll just pay what i can. What can they do? I won't be able to pay 900$ a month, no way. if you don't have the money, you can't give it to them! You need money to eat!

[MCP]

Originally Posted by riot shields

i think my loan amount is going to be somewhere around 100k after the next semester is over. i will have a 4 year degree (unfortunately i did my degree in aviation science, that pretty much gives me no back-up.. er.). I figure, i want to fly, and that’s all I want to do. i don't think about consequences enough i guess, but when the bills start rolling in t-minus 1 year i'll just pay what i can. What can they do? I won't be able to pay 900$ a month, no way. if you don't have the money, you can't give it to them! You need money to eat!

ACK!!!!!!

You're kidding right??

You don't just "pay what you can". You pay what you are told to pay. If you can't pay that, then you either find a way to consolidate and reduce your payments/interest or you are in deep *insert colorful metaphor here*. If you know for a fact that you won't be able to pay the $XXX /month that is going to be expected then you DO NOT take out a loan. Period.

If you insist on taking out a huge loan that you know for a fact (not sure how you'd know though for certain) you will NOT be able to make payments on, and the bills start showing up and you do not pay.....GOODBYE credit score! "I have to eat!" is not a valid reason for not paying your bills on time. lol

Also, MANY employers run a credit check now as part of the hiring process. If you have black marks all over your credit histroy, than no job for you. Unfortunately, negative marks on your credit score usually take 7 years to be removed.

Trust me, do not ruin your credit history. You will pay for it for a LONG time, and you will pay for it on a myriad of levels.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by MCP

negative marks on your credit score usually take 7 years to be removed.

Trust me, do not ruin your credit history. You will pay for it for a LONG time, and you will pay for it on a myriad of levels.

Empahsis on that added. The 7-year clock starts from the day you clear the debt - either paid off or settled. Not the day you open the account.

Can you get through life with a whacked credit score? Sure can, however, you will get positively raped on a car loan, and the only mortgages you may qualify for will be FHA loans at higher rates forcing you to carry PMI on the payments. Not good. You will also pay more for insurance. And it shuts you out of certain job fields, including financial and high-security operations, because you're vulnerable.

[LoadMasterC141]

Yup! I came out of the AF with a big debt load and had the same "Pay it when I can" philosophy. Well, everything went to hell while I focused on my main goal of getting through college. I settled with debt collection companies here and there, and got everything paid off, but my credit was basically ruined for...yup...7 years. That period ended last year...Thank god.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by riot shields

i think my loan amount is going to be somewhere around 100k after the next semester is over. i will have a 4 year degree (unfortunately i did my degree in aviation science, that pretty much gives me no back-up.. er.). I figure, i want to fly, and that’s all I want to do. i don't think about consequences enough i guess, but when the bills start rolling in t-minus 1 year i'll just pay what i can. What can they do? I won't be able to pay 900$ a month, no way. if you don't have the money, you can't give it to them! You need money to eat!

Wow.

I nominate this for the dumbest post on here, ever.

When we moved my girlfriend didn't get her loan info forwarded to her new address (it was supposed to be, long story...) but she didn't make any payments on it for the first 4 months or so. Luckily we caught it before it went to creditors, but her credit card interest rate is now 29% (vs. my 9%) and her credit score in the low 600's vs. my 760. Luckily we buy cars with cash so that hasn't impacted us yet, but I'm scared once we get married and look into a mortage what will happen then. Not paying is simply, well, NOT AN OPTION.

I'd start making plans NOW for how you will come up with the payment. Living at home (if your parents will allow) is probably the best way to accomplish this, while working two jobs. I'd get a job NOW and start paying down the loans now while you are in college.

I think if I had graduated with 100k in debt, I would probably leave the US and never come back .

[Texasspilot]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Empahsis on that added. The 7-year clock starts from the day you clear the debt - either paid off or settled. Not the day you open the account.

.

That just reminded me. Before I got DQ'ed for the Airforce one of the first things they checked was my credit score and credit history.

[MCP]

Hehe, I have about 100K in loan debt, but I qualify for a low interest rate and I'm married. My wife has a decent enough job to where I actually don't even have to work to pay our debts. Anything I make, makes it that much easier. Also, I live in an apartment so my bills are quite a bit lower than if I owned a home. Our cars are paid off as well which also helps.

If I were single though and that young, I imagine it would be much more difficult.

Wow, being 21 years old, unmarried, and 100K in debt......OUCH. No thanks!

I would imagine that a job such as airline pilot, corporate pilot, etc.. etc.., would take a look at your credit history as part of your background check. MANY professional jobs today do that.

[d_mckerrow06]

MCP does your 100K of debt include interest? I would be looking at somewhere between 50k-60k in debt plus interest, I am looking at a 7-8% locked in interest rate, how does that sound?

[MCP]

Originally Posted by d_mckerrow06

MCP does your 100K of debt include interest? I would be looking at somewhere between 50k-60k in debt plus interest, I am looking at a 7-8% locked in interest rate, how does that sound?

Yes, that 100K includes the interest. Without the interest, the amount is 75. I didn't get the sum as 1 whole, I got 30K twice, and 15 once. If you add them all up + interest they come out to about 90K-100K. These are not loans for flight school though (I plan to pay for as much as that as I can in cash), I used them for school and miscellaneous expenses here and there (and a few unexpected things) over the past 3-4 years.

With a 7% interest rate, your debt probably wouldn't be "that" bad (relatively speaking). It really depends on how much you have comming in. $100 a month isn't bad.....unless you have $500 total comming in. lol

You have to factor in your living expenses and whatnot as well. Rent is one thing....rent + electricity + food + car insurance + health insurance + gas for the car + miscellaneous expenses is another. A "relatively low" loan payment can be the one bill that breaks you.

People who say that you can just pay as much as you can "what are they gonna do??", are in for a REAL suprise come bill time. "They" can do a LOT.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by d_mckerrow06

MCP does your 100K of debt include interest? I would be looking at somewhere between 50k-60k in debt plus interest, I am looking at a 7-8% locked in interest rate, how does that sound?

I know you didn't ask me, but count on around a $500-$650 payment depending on the terms. 10, 15, 20 year, etc. Can you budget for that? As a CFI, it will be hard unless you work for a good school. As a regional FO, 1st year? Yes, if you pack your food and aren't on reserve.

FYI I pay 3.25% (for life) on a (orginal) $15k loan, the women pays 2.87% (for life) on a $25k loan. We got lucky, we refi'd back in '03.

[MCP]

Also, just to build off what Wheels said above about interest rates, a 30-50 pt change in your credit score (30-50 pts out of a 850 pt scale), can, depending on what your score curently is, adversely affect your loan interest rate up to 3%-5%...that's a huge amount when you consider the amount of money we are talking about.

[jawright]

Originally Posted by riot shields

i think my loan amount is going to be somewhere around 100k after the next semester is over. i will have a 4 year degree (unfortunately i did my degree in aviation science, that pretty much gives me no back-up.. er.). I figure, i want to fly, and that’s all I want to do. i don't think about consequences enough i guess, but when the bills start rolling in t-minus 1 year i'll just pay what i can. What can they do? I won't be able to pay 900$ a month, no way. if you don't have the money, you can't give it to them! You need money to eat!

*cough* You're screwed *cough*

[d_mckerrow06]

Thanks guys for all the advice I no there is so much negativity about loans but If I can keep my debt (not including interest) around 50,000 I think I'm going to do it. I would do more than just work as a CFI I have some other job to keep a regular pay check going so I think I could make it. Also this is kind of off the topic of loans but I always hear about government grants but any site that I find about grants say that there are gov't grants for flight training but they all want money for the information which seems like a scam...does anyone no if these grants actually exist?

[deserteaglle]

Originally Posted by d_mckerrow06

Thanks guys for all the advice I no there is so much negativity about loans but If I can keep my debt (not including interest) around 50,000 I think I'm going to do it. I would do more than just work as a CFI I have some other job to keep a regular pay check going so I think I could make it. Also this is kind of off the topic of loans but I always hear about government grants but any site that I find about grants say that there are gov't grants for flight training but they all want money for the information which seems like a scam...does anyone no if these grants actually exist?

I guess this just reinforces it...people mostly only ask for advice so they can have someone agree with what they were already thinking, or have someone to blame.lol

And Riot Shields, good luck with that.

The Avvie is good no? Thanks again SteveC.
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[Airdale]

Originally Posted by d_mckerrow06

Thanks guys for all the advice I no there is so much negativity about loans but If I can keep my debt (not including interest) around 50,000 I think I'm going to do it. I would do more than just work as a CFI I have some other job to keep a regular pay check going so I think I could make it. Also this is kind of off the topic of loans but I always hear about government grants but any site that I find about grants say that there are gov't grants for flight training but they all want money for the information which seems like a scam...does anyone no if these grants actually exist?

You need to listen to what people on here are saying! Let me tell you, I took out a loan for $56k to pay for all of my training at ATP. 1 year later, my payments are $570/month and my unpaid balance is $61,000. Go back and re-read what I just wrote.

$570/month for school loans
$200/month car payment
$150/month car insurance
$50/month cell phone
$150/month Food

Salary at ATP $1,000 ($800 if you take the housing option). Do the math. I'm left with - $70 per month!! If I didn't have $3k from the loan sitting in the bank, I'd be screwed.

Before I get jumped on for having a car payment, during my training I drove back and forth to Florida 3 times (cheaper then flying), back and forth to DC about a dozen times and my commute to work now is 30 mins. ( I live in Jersey). Having a reliable vehicle was/is essential. I have 400TT now, 290 multi. First year F/O pay is not going to help my situation much.

I have sleepless nights and when I think about the debt my stomach turns. Do NOT put yourself in my shoes. I love flying, but at some point you have to accept your losses and give up the dream to survive. I'm reaching this point and luckily in my case, I have a family business to jump back in to.

Which will bring my question: If I run a business, primarily mon-fri, which would trendmendously help pay off this debt and flight instruct on the weekends, in a few years would it be feasible to get an airline job? I'm starting to think sacrificing that coveted "Jet job" might be the best option to get back on my feet financially.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Salary at ATP $1,000 ... First year F/O pay is not going to help my situation much.

C'mon man, first year pay (and second, and third...) is bad but not THAT bad .

I just had a friend call me, he just jumped into an $85k charter job flying a legacy (corporate ERJ) as an FO after spending about 5 months instructing at ATP and then another 1.5 years @ XJT. They're gonna type him, comes with full medical benies, etc. He was still an FO, and had around 1700TT. The dream isn't dead, it might have changed a bit, but you can still make some OK coin just around the corner. And he didn't even know anyone, he applied over the internet, interviewed, and was hired...

My old instructor left flying to install floors (sounds like thats what you would be doing). I think he did this only after failing out of training somewhere, I wanna say ASA but I'm not sure.

[allison]

Originally Posted by deserteaglle

Two year degrees are worthless, and a worthless degree, no multi-engine ratings, and over 50k in debt at age 21 is NOT something you should be looking forward to. It's actually just plain stupid.

I'm coming into this late, but you guys really gotta watch who you're calling stupid. Not everyone has their parents to pay for college (me!) and financing was my only option. I am a FIRM believer that if you want something bad enough you will find a way. You can always find a way to make things work.

A two-year degree will get you started in the aviation field from what I've learned. If you get your two-year and instruct, you could have your bachelors by the time you're looking at regionals. And some regionals even hire with a two year.

Something else I've learned is that some pilots I meet these days are sooo negative. Take everything you're told as opinion and not fact, or with a grain of salt as some say. The aviation field is what you make of it and I've been told it's all about one's attitude.