Transition from F/O to Captain

[researcher]

Hi All,
I am doing research for a project about airline pilots and have a few questions that I am having a hard time getting answered.

First, if you work for a regional airline, what is the probability of getting hired by a major? I know that there are a lot of factors that play into it, but is it pretty likely, and do most people get to move?

Second, on average how long does it take to move from F/O to Captain?

Third, when you transition from F/O to Captain, do you start back at the pay scale for Captain, year 1 or do you move across to where you were based on how long you were with the airline?

I may have more questions, but any insight would be great! Much appreciated!!! Thanks

[frog_flyer]

1) low right now
2) all your seniority # (but for regionals you have to have a certain number of hours.. that's an issue for airlines with quick upgrades)
3) NO! You stay at your year of pay unless you're Gemini (have they worked their stuff out yet?!) or i think ryanair who resets every time they change seat. 12 year FO you're gonna go to 12 year CA when you upgrade. $$ bling it baby!

if you leave your airline, you're SOL and start at the bottom again, year 1 pay, crappy schedule, etc.

GL, read around, there is a ton of good info on here

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by researcher

First, if you work for a regional airline, what is the probability of getting hired by a major? I know that there are a lot of factors that play into it, but is it pretty likely, and do most people get to move?

The probability? I don't know, but if your experience is requisite to what the majors are looking for, you're fully eligible.

Second, on average how long does it take to move from F/O to Captain?

Varies widely. As low as a year at some airlines and as long as 20 years at others.

Third, when you transition from F/O to Captain, do you start back at the pay scale for Captain, year 1 or do you move across to where you were based on how long you were with the airline?

I'm a year-9 FO. If I upgraded to captain tomorrow, I would be a year-9 captain. Some airlines may be different, but I think the vast majority have a system like this.

[WestIndian425]

Interesting...how does that apply with EGF and AA, OO and DL, or XJT and CO? I know the former two pairs is under the same parent company, unlike the second.

Neil

[Doug Taylor]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Nick]

I think he's saying, does an AE captain or XJT captain keep a seniority number when going to mainline. No Neil, if that is the question.

[frog_flyer]

not true, there are guys at AE that have AA numbers. Some of those guys are flowbacks (from 9/11) others are NOT!

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I'm sure that I don't.

[Nick]

That is true I forgot about the seemingly unique case of American and American Eagle.

I don't know of any other mainline/regional pairs like that though.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

not true, there are guys at AE that have AA numbers. Some of those guys are flowbacks (from 9/11) others are NOT!

Remember, for the most part, that is a very small number of pilots.

[Alchemy]

Regarding flowthroughs, I think Eagle and AA are the only ones that still have one and I don't even think it's still in effect for newhires (i.e. a newhire today isn't guaranteed an interview at AA at any point). I'm not sure on the details of theirs so I'll refraind from further comment.

At CAL/COEX the flowthrough rules just depended on your date of hire. To sum it up, the earlier you got hired at COEX, the better it worked for you. It went something like this: The earliest flowthrough guys kept their DOH seniority when they flowed up. Then CAL took away DOH seniority but let them keep payscale and pass travel longevity. Then they took away payscale longevity...and finally pass travel, until the flowthrough was disbanded altogether.

In some ways I think the flowthrough may have been an excuse to really abuse regional pilots on their payscale and work rules. Back in the early-mid 90's, COEX probably had one of the best flow thru deals but they had terrible pay and workrules along with a $10,000 PFT requirement. Pilot were probably willing to put up with that since they were promised 737 right seat in 2 years. In the end, a lot of the guys that were promised that are still flying at Expressjet. Moral of the story: Don't believe what you hear.

[MQAAord]

The flowthrough agreement at Eagle was an agreement that allowed a pilot at Eagle, when s/he upgraded to jet CA at Eagle, to choose to be a 'flowthrough' or an 'Eagle Rights CA'.

A flowthrough chose to accept a number at AA, and those jet CAs went to AA when their number was called. AA had to be hiring in order for any flowthrough to go to AA, and an AA newhire classes had to have X% of flowthroughs in class. The drawback to choosing to be a flowthrough, was that if AA furloughed pilots, a furloughed AA pilot could 'bump' you out of your CAs spot, coming to Eagle from AA directly into a CA seat.

If a pilot chose to be an Eagle Rights guy, s/he did NOT get a number at AA, but in the event of an AA furlough an Eagle Rights CA would not lose their seat to an AA furloughee.

When this agreement was entered into (1998-ish, if I remember right), nobody could imagine AA ever furloughing. Everyone thought the door would be a one-way swing. However, it took everybody by surprise to see only a few flowthroughs actually go to AA, but see many flowbacks coming to Eagle as CAs. This has greatly contributed to the upgrade stagnation that is seen right now at Eagle.


Generally speaking, working for a regional carrier does not guarantee anything as far as getting hired by that regional carrier's major/legacy counterpart.

[WestIndian425]

Originally Posted by Nick

I think he's saying, does an AE captain or XJT captain keep a seniority number when going to mainline. No Neil, if that is the question.

Yep, that's my question. And I also included Comair and DL. Thanks for clarifying that, Nick. Gotta work on my english. See what happens when you stay at Castle too long?

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm sure that I don't.

LOL!

Originally Posted by MQAAord

The flowthrough agreement at Eagle was an agreement that allowed a pilot at Eagle, when s/he upgraded to jet CA at Eagle, to choose to be a 'flowthrough' or an 'Eagle Rights CA'.

A flowthrough chose to accept a number at AA, and those jet CAs went to AA when their number was called. AA had to be hiring in order for any flowthrough to go to AA, and an AA newhire classes had to have X% of flowthroughs in class. The drawback to choosing to be a flowthrough, was that if AA furloughed pilots, a furloughed AA pilot could 'bump' you out of your CAs spot, coming to Eagle from AA directly into a CA seat.

If a pilot chose to be an Eagle Rights guy, s/he did NOT get a number at AA, but in the event of an AA furlough an Eagle Rights CA would not lose their seat to an AA furloughee.

When this agreement was entered into (1998-ish, if I remember right), nobody could imagine AA ever furloughing. Everyone thought the door would be a one-way swing. However, it took everybody by surprise to see only a few flowthroughs actually go to AA, but see many flowbacks coming to Eagle as CAs. This has greatly contributed to the upgrade stagnation that is seen right now at Eagle.


Generally speaking, working for a regional carrier does not guarantee anything as far as getting hired by that regional carrier's major/legacy counterpart.

I see. Thanks for the info. I was actually waiting for you or Stan to respond. Don't know of any other AA/EGF members of this fraternity.

Doug, what about DL and Comair?

Neil

[Doug Taylor]

Long story short, no flowthru from CMR to DL at all.

No airline has a flowthru in 2006.

[crashmbern]

eagle technically does, the contract is there. haha

[TonyC]

F/O to Captain is UPGRADE, not Transition.




.

[meritflyer]

So, does anyone ever have reciprocity agreements with airlines who are about to furlough or close the doors? It kinda sucks that if you were to build thousands of jet PIC at one airline as a capt, it wouldnt transfer in some shape or form to another.

I guess it is what it is though.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

So, does anyone ever have reciprocity agreements with airlines who are about to furlough or close the doors? It kinda sucks that if you were to build thousands of jet PIC at one airline as a capt, it wouldnt transfer in some shape or form to another.

I guess it is what it is though.

That is kind of the idea behind the "master seniority list" that you may hear some argue for. If I spend X amount of years at a participating airline then get furloughed I can go to another participating airline and keep my years of service, but not the seat position. A pipe dream for sure.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by TonyC

F/O to Captain is UPGRADE, not Transition.

How about explaining the difference? As long as you're correcting someone you might as well make it educational too.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by SteveC

How about explaining the difference? As long as you're correcting someone you might as well make it educational too.

UPGRADE, notice all caps, sounds cooler than transition....

[MQAAord]

Transition is a term used to refer to a pilot going from one aircraft type to another, but staying in the same seat. Example, if Bill were to bid the 767, he would be 'transitioning' from the 88 to the 76. (No, he does not currently have a bid in for the 76 )

Upgrade would be if someone is going from F/O to CA, no matter if they're switching aircraft or not. For example a pilot can upgrade from 88 F/O to 737 CA, or upgrade from 88 F/O to 88 CA.

[researcher]

Thanks guys for all of your helpful replies. In the few hours that I've been posted to this, I've learned a lot more than in the week that I had been doing research just trying to read things to familiarize myself with the industry and the way it works to TRANSITION from one aircraft to another and then UPGRADE to a better seat

What I'm trying to do is track someone's possible career. They flew for a regional airline in 2003 and had been there for one or two years. I'm trying to figure out what would be a likely path from the first officer and the captain to try to figure out how much money they would have earned. I know there's a difference between the IDEAL path and the REAL path, and that's what I'm trying to figure out. It would obviously be nice to put them on an ideal path, but better to be realistic. Any insight further would also be great. Thanks for all of your help so far as well!

[woodreau]

There isn't an IDEAL path that fits everyone. What is ideal for one person is totally different for someone else. There are people who deliberately decide not to upgrade from first officer to captain. Why? They can hold a better schedule as a first officer. There are some captains who decide not to transition from a turboprop to a jet even though they may be able to hold a great schedule on the jet. Or decide not to even move onto the major.

[researcher]

So it isn't necessarily a safe assumption to say that a pilot wants to transition to the majors? I had read that the regionals are almost offering a better lifestyle I think, especially with the insecurity (I'm not personally in the industry, so I don't know all that much but I definitely want to learn). So it is definitely a personal decision. I know it completely depends on the point of the cycle where you enter to how long it takes to move up a seat or a plane, so this is definitely a difficult thing to try to generalize, but I have to try (no fun!). You are all definitely very helpful and I appreciate all of the posts!

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by SteveC

How about explaining the difference? As long as you're correcting someone you might as well make it educational too.

I apologize for the hit-and-run comment. While it was intended to add to the conversation in general, looking back now with a little more time, I see how it could have been construed as a correction aimed at researcher. I didn't intend it that way, and I hope I did not offend you.


Amanda has already alluded to the difference between Transition and Upgrade training, and there is yet another type, Initial (well, OK, there are four - Differences). All four are spelled out in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, affectionately known as "the FARs". (They used to be "Federal Aviation Regulations" - the name has changed, but the numbers and content have remained the same. Title 14, by the way, is Aeronautics and Space). You can access them all here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cf...i?title=200514

When you're talking about Air Carriers, you're talking about Part 121 of the CFR, titled "OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS". And when you're talking about training, you need to reference Subpart N - Training Program. This will include Paragraphs § 121.400 Applicability and terms used through § 121.429 Prohibited drugs.

It is in the first subparagraph of this Subpart that you'll find definitions of the types of training involved.

Subpart N—Training Program

SOURCE: Doc. No. 9509, 35 FR 90, Jan. 3,
1970, unless otherwise noted.

§ 121.400 Applicability and terms used.

(a) This subpart prescribes the requirements
applicable to each certificate
holder for establishing and maintaining

a training program for crewmembers,

aircraft dispatchers, and
other operations personnel, and for the
approval and use of training devices in
the conduct of the program.

(b) For the purpose of this subpart,
airplane groups are as follows:

(1) Group I. Propeller driven, including—

(i) Reciprocating powered; and
(ii) Turbopropeller powered.

(2) Group II. Turbojet powered.

(c) For the purpose of this subpart,
the following terms and definitions
apply:

(1) Initial training. The training required
for crewmembers and dispatchers
who have not qualified and
served in the same capacity on another
airplane of the same group.

(2) Transition training. The training
required for crewmembers and dispatchers
who have qualified and served
in the same capacity on another airplane
of the same group.

(3) Upgrade training. The training required

for crewmembers who have

qualified and served as second in command
or flight engineer on a particular
airplane type, before they serve as
pilot in command or second in command,
respectively, on that airplane.

(4) Differences training. The training

required for crewmembers and dispatchers

who have qualified and served
on a particular type airplane, when the
Administrator finds differences training
is necessary before a crewmember
serves in the same capacity on a particular
variation of that airplane.

Having said all that, I confess that this adds very little to the conversation, as the non-CFR use of the word "transition" was serving quite well to communicate the concepts at hand. Although it was not technically correct, it apparently introduced no confusion about the topic. The answers to researcher's questions are not to be found in the Code of Federal Regulations, after all, but in the work rules and policies of the various regional carriers, and the hiring practices of the major carriers.

And as far as those questions go, I could only attempt to answer the first. Majors have their minimum qualifications that they look for, and they use certain descriminators to separate the best candidates from the better ones. The primary qualification to achieve is flight experience. One excellent way to meet that qualification is to work for a regional carrier. It is one excellent way of many ways to meet that qualification. Personal preferences, timing, luck, and a myriad of other factors will combine to determine if it is the best way for you to gain that experience. Whatever you decide, you can almost be certain that the ideal plan for you will change as time goes on. What is perfect today may change before tomorrow.

Was that better, Steve?

.