First year FO -- Need some career direction please

[BoDEAN]

Entering the 10th month at my first regional job and have a few questions. I am an FO on an EMB. I have 1600 total time, 350 hrs in the EMB, and looking for direction. The airlines I work for has 8+ year upgrade time from FO to Captain. The time spent on reserve is about 3-4 years right now. I am starting to talk to more people who stress to me that I need to go somewhere with lower upgrade times, and get PIC time.

Not to sound dumb, but is this talk factual? I ask because I am on first year FO pay, about to hit second year FO pay, and if I am going to jump ship, I should do it soon so the pay cut isn't too much for me. There are a lot of choices out there, airline wise, on where to go. I'm happy, right now, where I am because I am learning and building experience, and total time. But on the downside, no PIC time, no upgrade in sight, and I am fearful that 5+ years out that if I am in the same position as stated above, it maybe be too late to jump ship. I am told by some that I owe this airline nothing, and to start putting out resumes to places with a lot lower upgrade times, and build PIC time.

For those in the business, what are your thoughts and suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[Doug Taylor]

I'll have to make a longer, more detailed response tomorrow morning, but here's a couple of quips:

Remember when you're waiting in line at the grocery store, get impatient and change lines only to realize that you really didn't move up that much?

Also, for a period of time, I considered leaving my employer for United which had fast upgrades to captain, bigger jets and better bases. If I had done that, I'd still be on furlough.

[BoDEAN]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'll have to make a longer, more detailed response tomorrow morning, but here's a couple of quips:

Remember when you're waiting in line at the grocery store, get impatient and change lines only to realize that you really didn't move up that much?

Also, for a period of time, I considered leaving my employer for United which had fast upgrades to captain, bigger jets and better bases. If I had done that, I'd still be on furlough.

Hey Doug, thanks for the quick reply. Noted. Look forward to more input from you. If it has any meaning, I'm currently at American Eagle.

[Doug Taylor]

I'm not sure if I'd leave eagle because they seem to have a rock solid place in the AMR corporation. Now if you left and went with someone like Mesa, Skywest or Chautauqua, they could lose a contract next month and furlough a crapload of people but I think that's less of a threat with Eagle.

I think it all depends on what you're after.

Risk/Reward! If I had a wife and a kid, I'd probably choose the path of least risk. If I were single adn didn't have anyone depending on me for a steady flow of income, I'd think differently too.

Believe you me, things can go sour at the "Best Place to Be (tm)" overnight.

[TexasFlyer]

Joseph Alai
Aviation Director & Recruiter

[Alchemy]

I would just stay at your current position if I were you. Enjoy your time as an FO and continue with no expectations. I told myself when I went into to my current regional that I'd be thrilled with anything less than a 5 year upgrade, which is almost double what crew planning told us our upgrade would be in newhire training. Even if I don't get it at 5 years, fine.

I too have flown with people that have told me "you're not at the right place". Personally I'm not in this to make 777 captain at age 35 or any far-fetched dream like that. I'm in it to make a decent living, provide safe air transport to the public, and enjoy the few perks that the 121 world does offer.

Ask yourself, would it be a total disappointment to find yourself still in the right seat in 4 years making about 40k/yr with a decent schedule and time off? For me the answer is "OK" (but that's not to say I won't fight for better at contract time). I would worry about finding another job when the furlough comes (it will come eventually) or when you feel you are qualified for a significantly better paying position.

Unfortunately, I think "lowered expectations" might be the key phrase when it comes to finding happiness in this profession, especially at the regional level. Cherish what you have, and don't be bitter about "what could have been". My 2 cents.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BoDEAN

Not to sound dumb, but is this talk factual? I ask because I am on first year FO pay, about to hit second year FO pay, and if I am going to jump ship, I should do it soon so the pay cut isn't too much for me. There are a lot of choices out there, airline wise, on where to go.

How much did you make as a first year FO? How much will you make (your best estimate) as a second year FO? I have *heard* via jumpseaters that Eagle doesn't have the strongest contract. They report getting screwed on more then one level with scheduling. This could impact your QOL and paycheck down the line. As a junior FO, what sort of lines are you getting credit wise?

How single/attached/unattached are you? Is there someone or people in your life that would move around with you? I ask because when I started looking at companies a requirement for me was taking my significant other into account. If I was single I would've done a lot more to get that PIC time.

Personally, I would probably leave eagle. Lateral moves aside, 8 years is a LONG time to wait. American hasn't even started recalling, in fact they are still parking airplanes. You are in for a long wait. I frequent a forum where a guy got hired at eagle in 1999-2000ish and recently quit and is now bitter because he never upgraded and was stuck making $30k/yr. The funny thing is, if he would've picked ANY other carrier sans ACA/Indy Air, he'd been a captain a LONG time ago.

[eglplt]

BoDEAN,

I think I can maybe shed some light on your dillema. I was in your situation not all that long ago. I left Eagle back in January and moved on to Netjets. I was at Eagle for 21 months as an emb fo. The only problem I see with your situation is your flight time, no two ways about it you are still low on time. Your time currently qualifies you for a lateral move to another regional and that is about it. The pay takes a significant jump from year one to year two, so you will be living a little more comfortably in that department. My suggestion would be stay where you are and build up your time meanwhile begin looking. You may also consider biting the bullet and getting your atp. Unfortunately, 121 sic time isn't worth very much in the current market without something else to make yourself competitive. Take some time each day and research jobs and companies out there so you know what is available. See what kind of qualifications they are looking for and see how many of those you already have. You can do this all while building up your time. You will eventually find something and you never know what might happen at Eagle meanwhile. It is easy for outsiders to bash Eagle because they only know limited information about the company. There is a fair amount of inner workings at Eagle that could change at any given moment and things might get better. The problem is, do you want to wait to see if that really happens. Eagle is one of the better regionals when it comes to work rules especially if you are on reserve. I hope that helps a little bit, let me know if there is anything else I can do. Good luck.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by BoDEAN

There are a lot of choices out there, airline wise, on where to go. I'm happy, right now, where I am because I am learning and building experience, and total time. But on the downside, no PIC time, no upgrade in sight, and I am fearful that 5+ years out that if I am in the same position as stated above, it maybe be too late to jump ship. I am told by some that I owe this airline nothing, and to start putting out resumes to places with a lot lower upgrade times, and build PIC time.

I understand your concerns about PIC time, but I'd consider the overall quality of life more important. Do you like the bases/do you have to commute? Are you OK with being on reserve for a while, or does scheduling really try to screw you on a regular basis?

I was at eagle for a little less than a year, and jumped ship because there just wasn't enough movement and I didn't think I was getting out of San Juan/Miami anytime soon. Had I gotten Dallas or LA right off the bat, things might have worked out differently, but when I looked at the overall picture--upgrade time, quality of life, how the company treats its pilots--I thought I would be better off elsewhere.

Another note--have you heard the rumors of the "big announcement" coming up in October for Eagle? I'd wait around until at least then to see if AA is going to start recalling/Eagle's going to get more planes.

Now if you left and went with someone like Mesa, Skywest or Chautauqua, they could lose a contract next month and furlough a crapload of people but I think that's less of a threat with Eagle.

Doug, just a note--as I understand it, Skywest has never furloughed, but Eagle furloughed quite a bit after 9/11. While it may seem beneficial to have AA flying locked up, the downside is being tied directly to the overall health of AMR.

[pilot602]

Doug, just a note--as I understand it, Skywest has never furloughed, but Eagle furloughed quite a bit after 9/11. While it may seem beneficial to have AA flying locked up, the downside is being tied directly to the overall health of AMR.

Never say never ...

United had never filed bankruptcy ... untill they did.

Ozark would "never sell to TWA" ... until they did.

Etc., Etc., Etc.

[DE727UPS]

"I am told by some that I owe this airline nothing"

I strongly believe that is correct...

[meritflyer]

I met a ERJ AE FO who had been on reserve for 8 years the other day. I made sure to ask him "8 YEARS?!?!?". He replied he held the line for a year but them 9/11 hit and BOOM! back onto reserve.

What a joke.

[kellwolf]

Well, for me at least, it's a matter of my long term goal, which is Southwest. Without turbine PIC, I won't even get an interview there. So, I chose a regional with a decent upgrade time. The fact that I'm based at home was a bonus. For me PERSONALLY, if I were in your situation, I'd be looking elsewhere. If your goal is somewhere that does NOT have the turbine PIC requirement, then you're probably good where you are.

[woodreau]

It depends on what you want to accomplish ultimately. If you are happy just flying and don't mind being an FO (and making FO pay) after 8 years, then you can stay there. But I imagine the frustration factor about not progressing in your career would probably grow the longer you stay.

I was looking to make a lateral move into Eagle from where I am now - mainly because eventually I would be able to bid a base which would base me at home - if I was willing to settle for being an FO forever and had no aspirations for moving on.

I still looked at what Eagle would do for any future career propsects - it basically closed the door to most major airlines seeing that I wouldn't be acquiring turbine PIC time any time soon. The only place I could probably go after Eagle is a fractional. There aren't any fractionals that have a turbine PIC requirement. I'd just have to find a way to get the ATP on my own.

During my interview at Eagle, I noticed that everyone else interviewing with me were either 20-something CFI's looking at their first regional, get some 121 SIC time and move on, or 40-something career changers looking at their first regional and looking probably to finish out at Eagle.

In the end, I decided that with my goals - not that I have any concrete goals - it's still very general - Eagle wasn't going to help fulfill them, even though Eagle appears to be a better place for me to work compared with where I am now.

At least at Eagle, you're acquiring 121, fixed-wing, multi-engine, turbine, and total time along with the associated experience. That's all good. but after a certain amount of that time, acquiring more doesn't necessarily help you advance your career (if your goal is to advance) and you need to continue acquiring more of the previous along with PIC time. That keeps more of your options open to you.

Figure out what you ultimately want to do, and if Eagle isn't going to help you get there, research the companies you think will help get you there. Talk to their pilots about concrete things like their work rules and the intangible things, like their quality of life, schedules, the commute, etc.

[fly22]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"I am told by some that I owe this airline nothing"

I strongly believe that is correct...

Just your time while your on the clock.

[RPM]

8 year FO pay at Eagle is $39/hr.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to live on 40K a year for the next 7-10 years waiting for upgrade at Eagle....not to mention everyone around you at the other regionals passing you up for bigger and better things and making twice the money as you.

Unless you REALLY like living in the domicile you have at Eagle and have no ambition to ever work anywhere else, I would get the hell out ASAP....the longer you stay, the harder it will be to leave.

Staying 8-10 years/ half that time on reserve, while getting s**ty pay and logging a bunch of useless flight time is pretty freakin stupid IMO but what do I know.

[surreal1221]

3-4 years on reserve?

That's nuts. I hope ASA, Colgan, SkyWest, XJT never get that bad.

[LoadMasterC141]

Yeah that seems insane to me. I hear the argument about the AE stability, but it is still nuts. You could be a Captain at alot of other regionals before you ever get off reserve at AE, from what I have read.

[BobDDuck]

As of today, sure you could be a captain else where much quicker, but that isn't a gurentee of future possibilities.

What would happen (and I've heard nothing to suggest this) if AA started growing like crazy for some reason and recalled all their fuloughed guys plus the 250 or so that are owned flow up. And then what if they gave pref interviews to another 500 Eagle guys. And then they gave eagle 100 more airplanes to replace contract flying currently being done by other regionals? Well, it would take a year or so for all that to shake out but you would be sitting pretty midway up the captain seniority list.

On the flip side you bail and go to Mesa and something happens where they loose the AAA -900 flying (which will happen soon if things shake out the way they look) and then in 2009 loose the HP flying and in the meantime are cut out of the UAX system and get booted from Delta by CHQ bidding on the RFP for what Freedom is currently doing. Again, not saying that would happen, but with contract negotiations coming up and a lot of Mesa guys making noise about taking a stand, their cost advantage could go away. So, all of the sudden that 2 year upgrade at Mesa is gone.

The same thing could happen anywhere really. In either direction. The question is are you willing to roll the dice either way?

[flyboy04]

Im nervous about the same thing, but I just dont see a person can know going into a job what the upgrade time is goin to be 5 years from now, with all the new hires of this year and the last seems to me that anywhere you go you take that risk, there can and will be alot happen in the next 5 years so it seems to me you never really know, sure makes the regionals look a little lease appealing.

[LoadMasterC141]

Seems like alot of what-ifs to me, but you do seem to have a point: It is a guessing game to an extent.

For those AE guy's sake, I hope you are right about those specific what-ifs. They certainly seem to deserve it.

The question is are you willing to roll the dice either way?

I would rather move to 3 different regionals in as many years than stay working in my "CUBE" as an Excel Jockey. Of course, I would MUCH rather be at one and a Captain on an EMB-170 in 3 years, which I have noticed HAS happened, but I am not banking on anything. I just wanna fly man! hehe.

[MQAAord]

Upgrade time at Eagle is currently about 8 years.

Upgrade time at Eagle in 1995 was about 8 years.

Upgrade time at Eagle in 1999 was about 2-3 years.

Upgrade time at eagle in 2009 will be ?........

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Never say never ...

United had never filed bankruptcy ... untill they did.

Ozark would "never sell to TWA" ... until they did.

Etc., Etc., Etc.

I definately understand. I was just trying to suggest that an Eagle FO's job security is not necessarily better in the long term than any of the other regionals...

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Upgrade time at Eagle is currently about 8 years.

Upgrade time at Eagle in 1995 was about 8 years.

Upgrade time at Eagle in 1999 was about 2-3 years.

Upgrade time at eagle in 2009 will be ?........

7.4 years.

[Doug Taylor]

HOPEFULLY, AMR doesn't decide to sent Eagle's flying out for a bid, that would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

HOPEFULLY, the eagle guys and the AA guys can put all of the flying under the same roof and end the lunacy of the regional "portfolio concept". Sorry to step on anyone's toes, but cross-bidding flying amongst five zillion carriers is straight up doofus.

There's not that much movement in the industry now and I'd probably stay put. Now if everyone was hiring due to expansion, all of the majors are picking up pilots left and right, it might be different, but that's not the case.

Upgrade at my employer went from 10 years to 2 years to 15 years back down to about 12 years all within the span of 60 months. And when I was hired, the HR rep said it should be about 8.

And I'm a 9-year FO and close, but can't hold captain. So, theoretically, if i went to Air Tran, for a fast upgrade, last week they said they're curtailing expansion and taking delivery of significantly less aircraft, I'd be on the bottom of the seniority list for a long, long time.

This is just my unchecked opinion, but think you're a little safer at Eagle than most other carriers.