First year FO -- Need some career direction please

[seagull]

I think the advice you've gotten is good, with a real exception. If you could go somewhere where you know for SURE that you will be a Capt on a multi turbine aircraft in short order, it may be worth the shot. Maybe it's a company hiring "street captains", or some such. They do exist, and it could lead to you leapfrogging your regional classmates to a job at a major.

Yes, there is risk, but to me you need to keep your eye on the ball, and if the goal is a major airline job, then consider the risk and go for the PIC time if it's not too excessive.

[kellwolf]

I know of one company hiring street captains, but last I heard they might be losing the mainline contract on some of those aircraft.

The downside of being a street captain (and I learned this from the ones PCL hired a year or two ago), is you're on reserve for an eternity as you watch FOs upgrade and leap frog you. Then again, turbine PIC is golden if you can stand the abuse on reserve at a regional.

[Cheechako]

For What It's Worth:

Over the last couple months at Skywest, I've interviewed several Eagle, ASA, Comair, and Trans States pilots; many with 2-3 years at their respective employers. Their reasons? They want quicker upgrades and are tired of the commute.

[crashmbern]

BoDean, since your senior to me i think you should leave eagle. just kidding. i say base your decision on commuting. I wouldn't leave eagle to commute for another regional. then if you have too factor in pay, upgrade time, etc. i can't wait to to be released from san juan and go to LGA. living in base must be sweet.

its all just a crap shot anyway.

adam

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by BoDEAN

For those in the business, what are your thoughts and suggestions? Thanks in advance.

If you haven't asked this question then you need to ask and answer it before you can make a decision.

What do you want to be when you grow up? Or to be more touchy feely about it, where do you see yourself in 5 years, 10 years and 20 years?

If you want to be at a major airline "soon" then I think you do need to take a look at getting PIC turbine sooner. If it's "eventually" then AE may be a way to get there.

Fractionals - as pointed out, most are OK with SIC turbine.

Parachute jumping - go for it.

FedEx - you should have joined the military :-)

Until you know what you want you can't answer the question. Sure, turbine PIC is the holy grail, but if you don't need the holy grail to get where you're going then why bother?

Hope that helps.

[BoDEAN]

Originally Posted by SkyWChris

For What It's Worth:

Over the last couple months at Skywest, I've interviewed several Eagle, ASA, Comair, and Trans States pilots; many with 2-3 years at their respective employers. Their reasons? They want quicker upgrades and are tired of the commute.

You are one of the interviewers at Skywest? Neat.
Thanks for the advice. I was looking at the 8yr FO payout, and it doesn't go up after the 8th year. I know nothing is for sure in the airlines, but after 8 yrs, if you are still an FO, and the pay never goes up, that would be a harder move out of AE than sometime sooner.

What am I looking for? PIC time, better pay in the long run, not being on reserve for an eternity. Southwest and Continental want a minimum of 1000 PIC Turbine, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon where I am at.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BoDEAN

What am I looking for? PIC time, better pay in the long run, not being on reserve for an eternity. Southwest and Continental want a minimum of 1000 PIC Turbine, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon where I am at.

CAL has no such requirement, not sure where you got that info.

As for PIC time, better pay, and not being on reserve, I think you could probably pick another carrier that would allow for that, especially with previous 121 time. I'm not sure how much you're flying, but if you're just meeting monthly guarantee your income is much lower than a guy holding a line.

Hypothetical situation:
Eagle 2nd year FO, reserve: $28,800 gross
"Other carrier", 2nd year FO, 95 hour line holder $39,900 gross (hourly only).

That's a pretty significant difference. That being said if you are sitting on the coach on reserve, flying 5-10 days a month, you are basically making $30k as a part time job. Some people might value that over moving on up the food chain.

[Doug Taylor]

95 hours/ month?

You know, Lincoln made a speech about that....

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

95 hours/ month?

You know, Lincoln made a speech about that....

it's credit, counting all that duty/trip rig, DH pay, etc. although I only am ending up with 13-14 days off/month now I hear at skywest (whom I was referring to in the post) you are able to credit more (like 110+/month). They have more open time trips.

anyway, welcome to the regionals

what was the speech? I'm lost.

[Doug Taylor]

The emancipation proclamation, my brotha!

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

The emancipation proclamation, my brotha!

I think it's a bit hard to compare the route structure of mainline flying (and 100+ seat aircraft) with a feeder (and 50 seat aircraft). Two completely different roles, and schedules, and two completely differnent places in ones' career. There's a reason why a position at a major carrier is more desireable than working at a regional, IMO.

And if you don't want to work 95 credit hours/month, bid the 70-80 hour lines. Thing is, you *might* end up with 1 more day off...

[OldTownPilot]

Yeah CALs mins are 1000 PIC and 1000 Turbine. They are mutually exclusive requirements. However inorder to get in there without PIC turbine experience, one's dad must be the chief pilot.

Guys have been hired there with:
1000 PIC in singles, and 1000 hrs as an RJ FO
1000 Multi in a piston twin and 1000 turbine in a Caravan (all 135 time)
It is possible you just have to be related to people.

Most of the people getting hired are "retired" military guys at 42-45 and RJ Captains.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by BoDEAN

What am I looking for? PIC time, better pay in the long run, not being on reserve for an eternity. Southwest and Continental want a minimum of 1000 PIC Turbine, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon where I am at.

As another posted pointed out, in theory, CAL doesn't require PIC turbine.

However - if I were you with your goals - I'd figure out how to leave AE. Try not to jump out of the frying pan into the fire, which might be tricky, but if you want turbine PIC in this decade you pretty much HAVE to leave AE, so figuring out when to jump and to where is going to be the trick. I guess the only good thing you have going is that it's hard to imagine ANYWHERE where the upgrade time is longer than AE. :-)

Good luck - tough choices to make.

[BoDEAN]

Tough indeed

[BoDEAN]

I'm curious what I would be losing going from say Eagle, to a place like Chautauqua where upgrade times are a lot better, plus they fly the same equipment I am in now. A place like skywest, flys the CRJ, so the training would be all new to me on a new aircraft.

[Doug Taylor]

<shameless plug>

You can always ask the guy who knows what CAL is looking for at NJC06! Hey can tell you exactly what they screen and download out of the database of applicants.

</shameless plug>

[Cruise]

There was a guy in my intial class who'd left Eagle for Colgan. As such, he went from the Jungle Jet to the Saab.....don't think they even asked him to do a sim ride......they said "you're hired.....show up to class on XX." That's been a little over a year ago. I think he's happy w/ his decision so far. He's held a line since his second month w/ the company and upgrade is in the near future. (DISCLAIMER: Obviously, upgrade is subject to change w/ the health of the airline/ industry) Advancement in this industry, more or less, revolves around Turbine PIC.....Not Jet PIC. The sooner you have it, the sooner you'll be more marketable for career advancement.


Like was said in previous posts, only YOU know what you want out of the future. Many have offered up opinions and they are all valid. It's up to you to wade through 'em and decide how you want to achieve your future goals.

Hope it all works out for you with your decisions!

[stuckingfk]

My question for you

Why did you apply to Eagle in the first place? This isn't a slam on you or the company, but there must be a reason you wanted to work there. You knew about the upgrade times and the pay, so what drove you there?

I'd also leave if I were you, unless you want to be a lifer at AE.

[skydog]

If you are going to make a lateral move, now is the time to do it. You've gotten by on that first year pay this long, you can do it for another year at another airline.

That being said, why exactly are you considering moving on?

In my experience: (Trans States, Piedmont, Mesaba, AWAC), regional airlines are pretty much all the same. The pay is the same, give or take $1000 or so)
The schedule is the same. It sucks at the beginning, but gets better with seniority. The equipment is the same. (ERJs and CRJs) After a 6 months and few hundred hours you won't really care what kind of plane you're in anyway.
In short, the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. The only real differece between the regional airlines, is where they base their pilots. So, if you are contemplating a change, I say figure out where and how you want to live your life, and pursue an airline that is compatible with that.

As far as upgrade time goes: Yes PIC time is important. But once you get your 1000 PIC, that's it. You don't need to worry about it anymore. You'll be as qualified as you need to be for a job at the majors. Do you really want to make decisions that will have lifelong consequences based on a short term gain? Add to this the fact that most of the majors aren't hiring right now, and won't be for a while, and it kind of takes away the urgency to get the PIC time. Yes the money is nice, but it's not like the difference between night and day. It is simply the difference between living in a small house or a medium house, or driving a used Civic vs a new one.

The other thing I have notice about regionals is that, at one time or another, they all have their "day in the sun". Every single one of them was "the airline of choice" for a short period of time. And every single one of them got their ass kicked later. Just look at my resume: Piedmont was considered one of the leading regionals out there. But then the RJ came along, they didn't get on the bandwagon, and got left behind. Back in '97 and '98, Mesaba was the place to be, growing like wildfire and getting AVRO's. Now they'll be lucky to be in business a year from now. AWAC was the leading regional in the United stable. I met many pilots who had left AE for AWAC because it was "better". But it turned out they were wrong. AWAC cost too much, got booted out, and had to pony up $125 million just to fly for USAir. Today's darling's are tomorrow's has-beens. The pendulum is always swinging.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[skydog]

Oh, and one more thing. Imagine how you will feel if you jumpship to an airline you think is "better", and then fail training. Food for thought.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by skydog

In my experience: (Trans States, Piedmont, Mesaba, AWAC), regional airlines are pretty much all the same. The pay is the same, give or take $1000 or so)

I disagree: 1st year / 2nd year pay

TSA $22 / $25
PDT $24 / $28
Mesaba $24 / $28
AWAC $24 / $35

There's a significant difference in 2nd year pay. $7/hr @ 1200 hours a year = $8,400. $10/hr = $12,000. All for doing essentially the same job. I wouldn't look "just" at first year pay IMO, one needs to look beyond it. Their first year pay is the same but unless this guy intends to stay at each regional just one year he should consider longevity pay as well (IMO).

Eagle's pay rate isn't "bad", it's just the upgrade time is so long that personally if I was at eagle, and single, I would SERIOUSLY consider getting say ATP mins, 2000 TT, 1000 multi and going to one of those detroit car freight carriers that runs falcons and lears (with the time you can upgrade quickly, as they don't fly all that much). Pay is around $40k to start as an FO. I hear USA Jet has an upgrade of around 12-18 months in the falcon. It would suck for 2-3 years but you can at least check the PIC box and maybe land a sweet corporate gig once you get some time in type. Beats being on reserve for 3-4 years. That being said, you'd pretty much HAVE to be single. Living on a 20 minute call-out=no cool.

[skydog]

Oh, and one more, one more thing. There are other ways to get PIC time. For instance, have you considered becoming an instructor? One of my cohorts at AWAC was a mechanic with a CPL and multi-rating. But he knew the BAe146 like the back of his hand. So when the need arose, the company tapped him to be an instructor, and typed him on the airplane. Dude didn't have 1500 hours or an ATP, which meant he couldn't fly the line, but he could fly repo's and test hops, which he did every chance he got. When the word came down that the 146's were going away, he flew these kinds of trips every time he could, got his 1500, got his ATP, and then transistioned to Captain on the CRJ.

Granted this is probably a rare case. But I think that if you were to become a systems or simulator instructor, you could probably get typed, and then at least start logging Part 91 PIC turbine. More food for thought.

[RPM]

Originally Posted by skydog

As far as upgrade time goes: Yes PIC time is important. But once you get your 1000 PIC, that's it. You don't need to worry about it anymore. You'll be as qualified as you need to be for a job at the majors.

1000 PIC isn't what it used to be. More like 2000+ nowadays to be competitive.

Southwest is 1300 PIC now MINIMUM.....sucks for all the guys that just got there 1000 PIC, thought they were golden then jumped ship.

[skydog]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I disagree: 1st year / 2nd year pay

TSA $22 / $25
PDT $24 / $28
Mesaba $24 / $28
AWAC $24 / $35

The big difference is that those pay rates are for turboprop equipment, whereas AWAC is all CRJ

But, putting that aside for the moment, look at the other three. Only about a $2700 dollar difference, or about $225 a month before taxes, between the three of them. Is a $150-$175 a month net really worth jumping ship for?

Besides, AWAC is the exception, not the norm. Remember, as we have already said, AWAC got kicked out of United because their costs were too high. They'll be safe from getting kicked out of USAIR only as long as USAIR stays out of bankruptcy. If they go back in, either that pay rate, or AWAC will be gone.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by skydog

The big difference is that those pay rates are for turboprop equipment, whereas AWAC is all CRJ

Well, since mesaba has one FO payrate for their avros, crjs, and saabs, I used that. I took the payrate from the ERJ-145 FO pay scale at TSA. PDT is tp, but they are also one of the highest paid TP outfits (sans horizon) and they fly the 50 seat Dash 8's.

But, putting that aside for the moment, look at the other three. Only about a $2700 dollar difference, or about $225 a month before taxes, between the three of them. Is a $150-$175 a month net really worth jumping ship for?

I agree. Use the time at eagle to pick where you want to go. People that don't have any experience go where they can, then use time they build and the 121 experience to go to a carrier that is better. Obviously he wouldn't jump ship to go to TSA or Mesaba, that would just be stupid. I'm guessing skywest would be the best choice, with a junior ORD base. Their second year pay ($35/hr) is also up there.