PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP

[ERJ-135]

All I read about is the school bashing, when in real life, it is the airlines that hire the low time marketing hyped pilot. At least the airlines get a product that has a level of training in an RJ sim which a fresh CFI, FBO type does not. The FBO CFI has paid the dues but has a stronger chance of not making it to IOE. Don't you think the regionals know this by now?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by 777forever

. I dont care as much for regional pay as I do airline pay.

So a regional isn't an airline? Hmmm. Kell/Bob etc....were you guys aware of this?

I would not work for the same wages at the major level because the majors is my last stop.

The majors don't care what you personally would or would not work for. They look at numbers. So long as there are stacks of resumes of people willing to work for beans, they will continue to pay low at the regional level. Now, don't think this won't trickle up to the majors level. Pretty soon, as the bar keeps going down from dog-eat-dog pilots all wanting to move up, a savvy CEO akin to JO is going to ask himself "why should I pay my guys tons of $$$ to fly a 737/757 [insert aircraft here] when regional guys are willing to work for beans?....and furthermore, if I slashed wages in order to put more money in my own pocket, will I still have resumes of guys willing to work for regional-style wages at my own airline?" The answer is, YES. The lowering of the bar is going to work its way up to the majors, because CEOs see no difference between a CRJ and a 757....to them, they're both just airliners. They don't see the difference in responsibility, etc, that justifies a pay difference. And guys like you willing to "just get there, no matter what I have to sell myself for", will only fuel this fire. Pretty soon, the majors and the regionals will be one and the same, on the low side.

Like I said, Grinstein/Lorenzo/Ornstein/Mullins.....none of them give a rats ass what you'd work for or not. You're just another resume in a stack of them.

Why would someone keep working for less money than they are capable of receiving? Haha, philosophy major huh? Anybody else a business major?

I don't know. But when the bar gets lowered sufficiently where ALL pilots are being paid beans because everyone's willing to "fly for food", you going to ask that question then?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by ERJ-135

All I read about is the school bashing, when in real life, it is the airlines that hire the low time marketing hyped pilot. At least the airlines get a product that has a level of training in an RJ sim which a fresh CFI, FBO type does not. The FBO CFI has paid the dues but has a stronger chance of not making it to IOE. Don't you think the regionals know this by now?

The regionals are willing to hire anyone that will work for their miniscule wages. Airlines hire from both pools....pilot-mill, as well as FBO trained. What's the difference? So a guy gets a few hours in an RJ sim.......1-2 years later after he's been tooling around in a Cherokee/Seminole and his RJ training was that old, what difference is it going to make? Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are the same, IMO. And the airlines are going to train you THEIR way, regardless of the previous experience you've had. If one guy has a few hours in an RJ sim, and another has none, both are going to go through the exact same training. The advantage, if any, will only be present for a while.....after that in the airline's specific training, the students will be pretty much par.

[Trip7]

So a regional isn't an airline? Hmmm. Kell/Bob etc....were you guys aware of this?

I forgot to put major in front of airline, whoops, I though I think you should have figured that out.

Next, you are dead wrong about the downslide in pay reaching up to majors, dead wrong. It will never happen, a guaranty it. I would bet you all the money I had it won't. It doesn't make sense. People hurry to the regionals because they want to get to the major airlines faster! The regional airline executives know this alreadly. The major airlines executives know that when they hire a pilot in most cases they are there to resume the rest of their career and therefore demand much higher pay. UPS, FEDEX, and Southwest all just raised pilot pay so there goes your theory. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, ATP, MAPD, and many other bridge programs have been around for a while and they have graduates at those respective major airlines and they weren't screaming "hey, pay us less!" You think Im going to sit down with a group of other pilots at my major airline and say to the CEO, I'm willing to work for less? Get outta here lol. Its all common sense to me, its sad you guys can't see. The industry is one the rise. Watch what happens in the next couple years when pilots start retiring left and right. Minimums will drop and pay will increase due to the demand. All you will hear from me is "I told you so"

[SpiraMirabilis]

God you're stupid. Look at Allegiant, where you can already fly MD80s for RJ pay!

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The regionals are willing to hire anyone that will work for their miniscule wages. Airlines hire from both pools....pilot-mill, as well as FBO trained. What's the difference? So a guy gets a few hours in an RJ sim.......1-2 years later after he's been tooling around in a Cherokee/Seminole and his RJ training was that old, what difference is it going to make? Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are the same, IMO. And the airlines are going to train you THEIR way, regardless of the previous experience you've had. If one guy has a few hours in an RJ sim, and another has none, both are going to go through the exact same training. The advantage, if any, will only be present for a while.....after that in the airline's specific training, the students will be pretty much par.

Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are not the same! If FBO pilot is a slow learner or not incredibly bright he might be a washout. Yeah they will be the same if the FBO pilot makes it through lol, seeing he has a greater chance of failing then the other guy with the sim time. I know this is a statistic that regional airlines have figured out. Why do the major airlines not institute this? Because the pilots they hire have done it before at the regionals in a 121 environment, no need for a bridge program there!

So yeah the regionals are trying to save a buck, they dont want to waste 30k on some washout! Got one spot left for the next class, one FBO pilot other pilot an ATP pilot. 9 out of 10 cases the ATP pilot would be chosen by the regionals. Reputation baby, Reputation.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by 777forever

I forgot to put major in front of airline, whoops, I though I think you should have figured that out.

Was being facetious.

Next, you are dead wrong about the downslide in pay reaching up to majors, dead wrong. It will never happen, a guaranty it. I would bet you all the money I had it won't. It doesn't make sense. People hurry to the regionals because they want to get to the major airlines faster! The regional airline executives know this alreadly. The major airlines executives know that when they hire a pilot in most cases they are there to resume the rest of their career and therefore demand much higher pay. UPS, FEDEX, and Southwest all just raised pilot pay so there goes your theory. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, ATP, MAPD, and many other bridge programs have been around for a while and they have graduates at those respective major airlines and they weren't screaming "hey, pay us less!" You think Im going to sit down with a group of other pilots at my major airline and say to the CEO, I'm willing to work for less? Get outta here lol. Its all common sense to me, its sad you guys can't see. The industry is one the rise. Watch what happens in the next couple years when pilots start retiring left and right. Minimums will drop and pay will increase due to the demand. All you will hear from me is "I told you so"

Man...your naievity is amazing. Not a personal slam at all, just an observation about you not knowing how much you don't know. Reference the bold portions above. First off, there are no guarantees in aviation. Saying "it'll never happen" because "it wouldn't make sense" is pretty funny in this industry. The CEOs don't give a damn how much money a pilot will demand to work for when there's a ton more pilots out therethat will willingly ##### themselves out for much, much less.....almost for free. Thats what you're not getting. They could care less where you are in your career! It doesn't matter to them.

I'm willing to wait for the "I told you so" there, Kit Darby jr.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are not the same! If FBO pilot is a slow learner or not incredibly bright he might be a washout. Yeah they will be the same if the FBO pilot makes it through lol, seeing he has a greater chance of failing then the other guy with the sim time. I know this is a statistic that regional airlines have figured out. Why do the major airlines not institute this? Because the pilots they hire have done it before at the regionals in a 121 environment, no need for a bridge program there!

So yeah the regionals are trying to save a buck, they dont want to waste 30k on some washout! Got one spot left for the next class, one FBO pilot other pilot an ATP pilot. 9 out of 10 cases the ATP pilot would be chosen by the regionals. Reputation baby, Reputation.

Pilot mill babies and FBO babies are the same, apart from flashy amenities in one, and maybe not in the other. Pilot mills generally have the blind leading the blind with their incestuous stud to CFI programs, and to an extent, so do some FBOs.

The sim time doesn't matter. I'm telling you. Everyone goes through the same training for the airline....it's called standarization. There's no A-track for guys with 2.5 of RJ sim time, and a B-track for guys without it. Everyone goes through the same program post-hire.

So using your logic, I'd fail out of regional training since I've never had any time in a CRJ sim?

That's funny.

Go ahead and work your theory if you like, it's your money. All I (and 200 others here) are saying, is that you don't have all the answers you'd like to think you do.

Humble-ness, young padawan.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Yea, just look at the money savings getting pilots to pay the training for regionals at JetU, FlightSafety, and even ATP (to some extent). This saves the airline money. I hate to think the future will only be this way to get a 121 job.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are not the same! If FBO pilot is a slow learner or not incredibly bright he might be a washout. Yeah they will be the same if the FBO pilot makes it through lol, seeing he has a greater chance of failing then the other guy with the sim time. I know this is a statistic that regional airlines have figured out. Why do the major airlines not institute this? Because the pilots they hire have done it before at the regionals in a 121 environment, no need for a bridge program there!

So yeah the regionals are trying to save a buck, they dont want to waste 30k on some washout! Got one spot left for the next class, one FBO pilot other pilot an ATP pilot. 9 out of 10 cases the ATP pilot would be chosen by the regionals. Reputation baby, Reputation.

I am a "FBO pilot" and damn proud of it. I guarantee you that I will have just of good of a chance of going to a regional at 1000 hours, if I wanted that. But guess what, I dont. I want to go 135 freight, where they shy away from "pilot mill pilots" because of the sheltered training environment they are in. I dare you to ask how much hard IFR those people have. Most will be less than 5 hours. How many approaches will they have done with clouds down to 300'. Many will say ZERO. Thats right very little REAL experience. you can take that hood off whenever you need to, those clouds dont just dissapear.

The FBO pilot you call "lesser" will be the one to save you a$$ when shart hits the fan. Because he has been there and done that, but at night and on his own.

Oh crap, I have about 10 hours in an ATR sim from back when I was 6, and another 2 in a CRJ over the summer. I guess I am a sellout now

Oh wait, I didn't have to pay 8 grand for it so its all cool now.

[jtrain609]

Yup, philosophy major with a minor in political science. But more importantly, I'm actually in the thick of it unlike you, and while this is an academic discussion to you my rent bill isn't.

[montanapilot]

so lets see here "777" you fly what a cherokee or 172 i m guessing? Hmm so a CRJ pilot, F-117 pilot, MD-80 Pilot, 757/767 pilot are trying to tell you something yet somehow you have all the answers.

Wait till you have to start paying back your financial aid and not have mommy and daddy there to provide you gas money and you may have a different outlook. Have you tried to raise a family on $20K a year while having to live in a large metropoliton area? Ahh i forgot that doesnt matter though, its all about "gettin to the majors"

As for the FBO vs academy pilot arguement you might wanna zip it since your already talkin out your ass, any further comments will just solidify the fact that you don't know what the #### your talkin about. Do you honestly think a regional gives a s##t about some "RJ transistion" moneymaking scheme some school has fooled you into taking?

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Next, you are dead wrong about the downslide in pay reaching up to majors, dead wrong. It will never happen, a guaranty it. I would bet you all the money I had it won't. It doesn't make sense.

There are an awful lot of Delta pilots and Northwest pilots (and others) that would laugh in your face. Or cry maybe. Haven't you read about the cuts that the major airline pilots are already taking???? The slide is already reaching the top tiers, son, you really need to open your eyes a little bit more.

[DE727UPS]

I'm starting to think he's a troll....

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by 777forever

The major airlines executives know that when they hire a pilot in most cases they are there to resume the rest of their career and therefore demand much higher pay.

The CEO of the new US Airways, Doug Parker, was recently quoted while standing in front of a group of pilots:

The days of flying bigger aircraft for more pay are over

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I'm starting to think he's a troll....

I would concour with that assesment.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I'm starting to think he's a troll....

I used to think that too, but who would spend this much time trying to piss people off? I know, I know....more pathetic losers than I realize.

I honestly think he's just a young person who thinks he has everything figured out (maybe even more than most of his/her type). He is so smart that he's going to debate and discount the experience, advice and factual wisdom put fourth by people in his "dream" position and everyone in between. Kind of a dangerous personality for this job in a way. Heck, I'll be honest, I'd surely kick him out of my cockpit.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by ERJ-135

All I read about is the school bashing, when in real life, it is the airlines that hire the low time marketing hyped pilot. At least the airlines get a product that has a level of training in an RJ sim which a fresh CFI, FBO type does not. The FBO CFI has paid the dues but has a stronger chance of not making it to IOE. Don't you think the regionals know this by now?

Wow. . . more ignorance.

If this were true, no FBO CFI trained pilot would be getting on with regionals. Which we both know is not the case.

Nevertheless, these ignorant comments are going to continue so it's really pointless for me, or anyone for that matter, to call you out on it.

[Flysher]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Na, its the race to see who can make 20k the first year, 30k the second year, upgrade and 60k the third year 70k the fourth year, 80k the fifth year, FEDEX, UPS or SWA the 6th year granted you got the connections, and 50k that probationary year, 80k the second year 90k the third year, 100k or more the fourth year, by this time you should have the loans paid off and living nice pretty good compared to most people not only in the US, but in the world.

where the heck is this at???!!! good lord someones been holding out on us!

I wanna know where this regional is that garuntees those pay raises on that time frame. In the mean time, ill make a list of regional pilots that i know who are in there 3rd and 4th year of being an FO making less than I am at my first year at airnet flying props!!.

[Flysher]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"I dont really care what the regionals pay"

This attitude is really bad for the piloting career. I pray there are few like you entering the industry. By the way, UPS pilots don't take kindly to people who favor lowering the bar in this business. Where did you say you wanted to work, again?

We all, from CFI's to regionals to majors, need to care about stopping the downward slide in pilot pay.

Dont worry, most of the people he works with wont put up with that attitude no matter where hes at. He will see... He will see.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jfleisher

where the heck is this at???!!! good lord someones been holding out on us!

I wanna know where this regional is that garuntees those pay raises on that time frame. In the mean time, ill make a list of regional pilots that i know who are in there 3rd and 4th year of being an FO making less than I am at my first year at airnet flying props!!.

Just an FYI, at my regional:

First year FO: ~$22k-24k
Second year: ~$40k
Third year: ~$42k
Forth year: ~$75k (upgrade is just under a 3 year time frame now, I am flying with a fifth year CA and in his 4th year he told me his W2 showed 75k)
Fifth year: ~$78k+

All pay does NOT include per diem.

I'm not justifying this guys post (because he's out there) but the pay is better here than most people have in their mind I think. It's still pretty low flying 50 seat aircraft, but not so low that you have to live in a cardboard box or take a second job after that killer first year .

[jonnyb]

I'm not justifying this guys post (because he's out there) but the pay is better here than most people have in their mind I think. It's still pretty low flying 50 seat aircraft, but not so low that you have to live in a cardboard box or take a second job after that killer first year .

Better?? No offense man, but I don't think so. $40-42K for 2nd and 3rd year FO is good??? Maybe "for a regional" but that is not good considering the type aircraft and operation. $75K for Captain?? Com'on, how are these numbers anywhere close to good? Let's keep perspective people!!!

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

God you're stupid. Look at Allegiant, where you can already fly MD80s for RJ pay!

God you a fool, do you thing Allegiant can afford to pay them more? More pay and run the company to the ground yeah!

Man...your naievity is amazing. Not a personal slam at all, just an observation about you not knowing how much you don't know. Reference the bold portions above. First off, there are no guarantees in aviation. Saying "it'll never happen" because "it wouldn't make sense" is pretty funny in this industry. The CEOs don't give a damn how much money a pilot will demand to work for when there's a ton more pilots out therethat will willingly ##### themselves out for much, much less.....almost for free. Thats what you're not getting. They could care less where you are in your career! It doesn't matter to them.

I'm willing to wait for the "I told you so" there, Kit Darby jr.[/quote]
The pilots the airline are the one that do the contract, not other pilots wanting to work there for less.

Originally Posted by MikeD

Pilot mill babies and FBO babies are the same, apart from flashy amenities in one, and maybe not in the other. Pilot mills generally have the blind leading the blind with their incestuous stud to CFI programs, and to an extent, so do some FBOs.

The sim time doesn't matter. I'm telling you. Everyone goes through the same training for the airline....it's called standarization. There's no A-track for guys with 2.5 of RJ sim time, and a B-track for guys without it. Everyone goes through the same program post-hire.

So using your logic, I'd fail out of regional training since I've never had any time in a CRJ sim?

That's funny.

Go ahead and work your theory if you like, it's your money. All I (and 200 others here) are saying, is that you don't have all the answers you'd like to think you do.

Humble-ness, young padawan.

Not every FBO pilot fails, I said if you were listening that the washout rate for FBO pilots are much higher than someone graduated from an ATP type flight school. I'll put money on that. Do research if you want to prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

I am a "FBO pilot" and damn proud of it. I guarantee you that I will have just of good of a chance of going to a regional at 1000 hours, if I wanted that. But guess what, I dont. I want to go 135 freight, where they shy away from "pilot mill pilots" because of the sheltered training environment they are in. I dare you to ask how much hard IFR those people have. Most will be less than 5 hours. How many approaches will they have done with clouds down to 300'. Many will say ZERO. Thats right very little REAL experience. you can take that hood off whenever you need to, those clouds dont just dissapear.

The FBO pilot you call "lesser" will be the one to save you a$$ when shart hits the fan. Because he has been there and done that, but at night and on his own.

I never understood this FBO pilot will save me when stuff hits the fan. Get outta here. Your training will save you when stuff hits the fan. Im sure your extra 500hrs in the pattern won't be that significant

Finally, I guaranty was that the pay downslide would never go to the major airlines under normal circumstances. I understand a 9/11 type event will cause all hell to break loose. If 9-11 never happened none of you would be b*tchin right about pay right now. The airlines went into a little slump but it is gaining momentum right now. When Delta, Northwest, and United get back on their feet the pay rise again.

Im with you guys, Im all for more pay. But how can we ask for more pay when the pay is not that bad and the airlines are just trying to get on their feet?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

So much better?? No offense man, but I don't think so. $40-42K for 2nd and 3rd year FO is good??? Maybe "for a regional" but that is not good considering the type aircraft and operation. $75K for Captain?? Com'on, how are these numbers anywhere close to good? Let's keep perspective people!!!

I would say they are "good" from the standpoint of historical wages paid in this area of the industry.

Even at the height of pay (contract signed 9/11/01), 2nd year FO's on the RJ were only making $39/hr (compared to $35/hr now). At that time they were the highest paid 50 seat FO's. Comair FO's in the 70 made $41/hr.

[Flysher]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Just an FYI, at my regional:

First year FO: ~$22k-24k
Second year: ~$40k
Third year: ~$42k
Forth year: ~$75k (upgrade is just under a 3 year time frame now, I am flying with a fifth year CA and in his 4th year he told me his W2 showed 75k)
Fifth year: ~$78k+

All pay does NOT include per diem.

I'm not justifying this guys post (because he's out there) but the pay is better here than most people have in their mind I think. It's still pretty low flying 50 seat aircraft, but not so low that you have to live in a cardboard box or take a second job after that killer first year .

LOL you totally destroyed me with that one!!! Seriously though, where do you work? also i wonder why theres a huge pay raise from year 1 to year 2, but then year 3 is barely showing much more?

ah oh well, ill go back to my dirty airplane with my tail between my legs