Continuous Duty Overnights. Your thoughts?

[Doug Taylor]

"The Rocket"

"The High Speed Overnight"

"The Stand Up"

For those that don't know, here's an example:

LAX-PHX 2230-2345
Layover
PHX-LAX 0520-0635

Safe? Not safe?

Some people love 'em because you get to arrive late, and get home early.

Some people hate 'em because you're not really on a layover where you can get adequate rest.

Thoughts?

[Low_Level_Hell]

As long as you get adequate rest before your shift starts I don't see the issue.

[Doug Taylor]

How about if we added in:

SFO-LAX 2115-2200
LAX-PHX 2230-2345
Layover
PHX-LAX 0520-0635
LAX-SFO 0650-0745

Still ok? I'm just getting a "feel".

[Dugie8]

I think, again my OPINION, CDOs are unsafe. Simply because you do not have enough time to sleep and you are inactive for such a long period of time between flights.

The issue of getting enough rest before hand is one of sleep cycle. My first night out, while not CDOs, is a wreck. I try to sleep as much as I can on Monday, the I leave the house at 9 pm, getting to my jumpseat at 1030, then to TOL by 130 am local. My flight doesn't leave until 530 local and gets into PDX at 1000 local (noon TOL time). By this time I am so dog tired I could sleep through a nuclear war. Now I am on the right cycle, sleep during the day, fly at night.

These CDO lines don't allow enough time betwen duty periods to let someone live a normal life and be on the correct sleep schedule.

While the FAA continues to turn a blind eye to fatigue issues there will be more and more incidents as the skies become more crowded and management and scheduleing squeeze every ounce of paper efficiency out of crews (not a reference to todays Comair incident).

[MQAAord]

I did many standups at Eagle. They ususally went senior for commutability reasons, so I never held them as a line. I only did them while I was on reserve.

My last month on reserve I did almost ALL standups. It was awful. I'd never been so fatigued as I was after week of those! It seemed like I never got a long enough period of sleep, even with naps in the mid-day and naps at night, it just wasn't long enough.

Personally, I hated them. Some people love them, and to each their own, but I did NOT like them.

[BobDDuck]

SIDE NOTE: CMR doesn't do CDOs out of Altanta so I just want to make sure that this thread doesn't get turned into that. However, they definatly could be a safety issue.

We only fly them out of Charlotte so crews in other domiciles are pretty much immune from getting them. I have picked up a few out of open time as they count for two days minimum pay which is nice. There are a few lines out there that are almost entirly made up of them. It's great for people who want to spend time with their kids during the day (when they aren't sleeping). The few I've done haven't been too bad. Mostly 7 hours of rest between arrival and show the next morning. We do have a few that are about 5 hours of time which really only allows for 3 hours of sleep at best. Does it lead to unsafe operating conditions? Definatly not on the first leg. The second leg maybe, but one is rested going into the trip to begin with (which isn't always the case) then I don't see why a single leg back after a power nap would be any more unsafe then some of the early originators we fly every day. I am certainly not sharp on day 4 at 4:45 am. I think if you go into the trip from the beginning well rested then they aren't a problem. If you are tired to begin with then there certainly could be problems down the road. Also, adding legs on the front or the back is just asking for trouble.

[Dugie8]

I think there is an important distinction to make here. It is one thing to "like" a CDO for reasons other than "doing it". More time at home, less flying for same pay, etc etc, are not reasons to justify a practice that is on its best day dangerous.

I love getting home Tuesday mornings at 8 am, but I am dogged tired, but I get to sleep in my own bed. If I was operating the airplane for the leg home, I wouldn't do it, just too unsafe (even more tired than my first night out). I love the result, but the consequences are still the same, fatigued beyond the ability to fly an airplane safely.

[Doug Taylor]

We'd fly MKE to MQT about 10pm. Deplane, clean, put the aircraft in a heated hangar, chock it, go to the hotel for about 3 1/2 hours, then take it out of the hangar, board, fly back to MKE, swap planes, and then do a MKE-MDW-MKE turn.

A couple of legs was ok, but marketing started tacking on extra flying on the end -- while it was legal it started to become unsafe. At least for me, when the sun rises after a night of minimal sleep I feel like I had a nasty hangover and strange thoughts start dancing around in my head.

[Jason]

As a reserve Captain I routinely did 5 hi speeds in a row - it sucked. On the last morning there is no way I was anywhere near 100%. Anyone that says any differently is just lying to themselves. Yeah I liked doing them for commuting reasons but it can definatley impact safety.

Incidentally, about a year or so ago, Pinnacle had an incident were a crew departed LSE(LaCrosse, WI) early morning on a hi speed (after doing several hi speeds in a row) on the wrong (short) runway, Nobody really heard about it because they managed to keep the airplane airborne but after rotation they went thru several shaker/pusher cycles before reaching a safe airspeed/altitude. The FO was fired and the Captain was suspended and both cited fatigue as one of the causes for the incident.

Jason

[cmsuav8r]

I guess it would depend on how many days in a row you have to do it. While I have no actual experience with this, I don't think it would be that bad if it were only for a couple days because I'm young and a night owl right now anyway. I don't really think I would want to do it for more than a couple days in a row, and I would say that it is definately a safety risk.

[zmiller4]

Safe? Not safe?

Some people love 'em because you get to arrive late, and get home early.

Some people hate 'em because you're not really on a layover where you can get adequate rest.

Thoughts?

The only stand ups I had to do had almost 7 hrs at the hotel, so they were no worse than a reduced rest overnight. They also were only 2 legs, which made them pretty easy.

I think continuous duty overnights are fine if the crew treats them like they were meant to be--essentially an all-night duty period. I knew people who would bid them in order to have a normal daytime life without really trying to adjust their biological clocks to get adequate rest prior to the duty period, which is probably pretty unsafe.

I think that reduced-rest between two long duty days--which happens too often--are more dangerous. At least with CDO's you don't have to summon energy for an entire day.

[kellwolf]

Personally, I think CDOs would work okay IF your line was made up entirely of them. As a result, your internal clock would be used to the rhythm. As it is, (at least at my airline), they mix them with other lines. So, you go in late (after sleeping all afternoon if you want proper rest), get up the next morning, fly in, go back to sleep to get proper rest, get up around 2 PM, get ready for a four day trip, fly out, get your reduced rest overnight, repeat. That was my trip a few weeks ago. I was all screwed up.

[I_Money]

But if you look at other professionals - surgeons for example. A friend of mine is a surgeon, and regularly has a 24 hour shift where he is operating all day and all night - sometimes he has 2 of these with 8 hours in between! What makes it interested, he had a schedule like that, and after he clocked off the second time he came to the polo club to play polo, like he had just spent 8 hours at the office.

[CapnJim]

I think the CDO should always be followed with a 12 hour rest, just like a RRP. Moreover, there should be a place where you can get a decent nap on the CDO; a recliner, couch... something like that so you can get at least a 2 hour nap before the next two legs. Even a small amount of sleep has tremendous benefits.

Oh, and the next day, the NFP on the second leg has understood overhead-stydying privlediges, but always on the downlow.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

SIDE NOTE: CMR doesn't do CDOs out of Altanta so I just want to make sure that this thread doesn't get turned into that. However, they definatly could be a safety issue.

We only fly them out of Charlotte so crews in other domiciles are pretty much immune from getting them. I have picked up a few out of open time as they count for two days minimum pay which is nice. There are a few lines out there that are almost entirly made up of them. It's great for people who want to spend time with their kids during the day (when they aren't sleeping). The few I've done haven't been too bad. Mostly 7 hours of rest between arrival and show the next morning. We do have a few that are about 5 hours of time which really only allows for 3 hours of sleep at best. Does it lead to unsafe operating conditions? Definatly not on the first leg. The second leg maybe, but one is rested going into the trip to begin with (which isn't always the case) then I don't see why a single leg back after a power nap would be any more unsafe then some of the early originators we fly every day. I am certainly not sharp on day 4 at 4:45 am. I think if you go into the trip from the beginning well rested then they aren't a problem. If you are tired to begin with then there certainly could be problems down the road. Also, adding legs on the front or the back is just asking for trouble.

While not yet a professional airline pilot...yet! I am a night owl. Went to bed last night at 5:30am.

I'll agree with you about power naps,they're friggin wonderful. I tend to power nap at my last few job. Either on my two 15 min breaks but definately on my hour lunch.

Same thing at my current job. For me it tires me out more to try to stay awake when I'm exhausted then just to take a quick power nap and wake up refreshed. It could only be for 10 mins. but that 10 min nap will give me energy to stay both awake and alert for about an hour longer then if I fought sleep.

At Chase I tried explain this to co-workers but they simply couldn't grasp it saying that they could never sleep on the job!

Whaddeva...

[rausda27]

I never liked CDO's. The reason why for me is I have too many obligations when I am home to attend to and can't get as much nap time as I need. If I am home, there is a good chance that my wife is working, which in turn requires me to tend to out two year old daughter. Coming home from a CDO and running after a two year old all day and then going back out and doing another CDO isnt my idea of a good schedule.

[Low_Level_Hell]

Too bad the FAA doesn't allow 'go-pills' for you guys.

[JEP]

I know BobD mentioned it doesn't happen, but I did hear the "media" mention that they arrived close to midnight last night from ATL.....I think I know who Ill go with on this one.

[kellwolf]

Here's how my last CDO went into HPN. Started with a DH from MEM-DTW, run to the plane, pre-flight, fly from DTW-HPN, post flight (with a call in to the hotel van right before I walked down the stairs to make sure the landing didn't break off any static wicks), told "The van's on the way. Should be there in 5 minutes," wait 15 minutes for van, go to OTHERSIDE of the airport to pick up ASA crew, ASA crew is still re-positioning their plane from the terminal, back to terminal to pick up another passenger, back to other side of airport to get ASA crew, get to hotel, sleep 3 hours, leave hotel, 15 minute van ride, pre-flight, fly HPN-DTW, stay in hotel for 9 hours, DH back from DTW to MEM.

BTW, I don't know too many surgeons that cross time zones while on their shifts, either.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by JEP

I know BobD mentioned it doesn't happen, but I did hear the "media" mention that they arrived close to midnight last night from ATL.....I think I know who Ill go with on this one.

A friend of mine at CMR told me the bid pairing was for getting in just around midnight on FRIDAY night. So they had (per the bid pairing anyways) 28 hours.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

A friend of mine at CMR told me the bid pairing was for getting in just around midnight on FRIDAY night. So they had (per the bid pairing anyways) 28 hours.

I didn't mean for that to sound like I was questioning you. The media seemed to mis that extra 24 hours.....

[frog_flyer]

I've found that there are different kinds of nappers out there.

My dad is a 'lay on the couch in my office for 10 minutes and be on the ball when I wake up'

I'm the 'lay on the couch and die for 3 hours and wake up with horrible breath' kind of napper.

Sleep/nap/etc does different things for everyone. But, never underestimate a good nap. I don't have clas until noon or 1 each day and i've begun to wake up around 10ish so I can have a nap when i return from class. They're great.

/randomness?

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

I've found that there are different kinds of nappers out there.

My dad is a 'lay on the couch in my office for 10 minutes and be on the ball when I wake up'

I'm the 'lay on the couch and die for 3 hours and wake up with horrible breath' kind of napper.

Sleep/nap/etc does different things for everyone. But, never underestimate a good nap. I don't have clas until noon or 1 each day and i've begun to wake up around 10ish so I can have a nap when i return from class. They're great.

/randomness?

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I sound like your dad when it comes to power naps!

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

These CDO lines don't allow enough time betwen duty periods to let someone live a normal life and be on the correct sleep schedule.

All depends on how you define "normal life" and "correct sleep schedule".

Is a CDO any better or worse than a coast-to-coast redeye?

[mrivc211]

I've had bad experiences with them. I know most of the time they're ok, but when wx gets bad, or mx becomes an issue, your short 6hr30min rest period gets erased and your required to be on duty throughout the night. So having been through that, no thanks.