Continuous Duty Overnights. Your thoughts?

[kellwolf]

See, I might actually like CDOs.....if they paid more at my airline. As it is, there is no incentive to bid for CDOs. Every other job I've worked at, the guys and gals that worked the back of the clock got more money to compensate for throwing their rhythm out of whack (even SWA had an overnight ramp position at the mail house that got paid more). But, CDOs pay just as much as a day run to the same place.

[Lee D]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

It's that guy who was blocking the line at Starbucks... GET IM!

I'll be looking for you Mr. Taylor. . . . better watch your back!!

[Doug Taylor]

Anytime, baby! Bring it!

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Some people hate 'em because you're not really on a layover where you can get adequate rest.

That's really the key, isn't it? Can you get adequate rest? Everyone is different and some people may be able to while others may not.

I'd say if you can handle it, take it. If you can't, then don't.

[kellwolf]

Sometimes, you don't have a choice. PCL likes to mix CDOs in with regular trips in the lines. I think they like to "share the love....."

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sometimes, you don't have a choice. PCL likes to mix CDOs in with regular trips in the lines. I think they like to "share the love....."

Sonny Bono work crew sked there?

[ERfly]

We don't have Standups at XJT (at least I haven't seen 'em). However, we do our fair share of red-eyes. We have 3 kinds.

The first is the red-eye turn...Duty in about 9:30 pm or so. Fly 1 leg to the outstation (PHX, ONT, PSP, DEN). Sit for about 2 or so hours on the ground and be back in IAH by 6:00 am. I've done one of these to DEN. It wasn't too bad. Got about an hour nap in the back of the plane. Plus, you're paid for 2 days of work. I imagine this is what a standup is like (minus the hotel)

The second kind is fly a 4-day with Day 3 getting in somewhere (PHX, SLC, BOI) fairly early in the day. Duty on for Day 4 at about 1 or 2 in the morning, fly 1 leg back to IAH. Haven't done one of these, but I imagine it's hard to sleep during the day to be rested for the last leg.

The last kind is the LAX red-eye. Leave LAX at about Midnight or 1 am. Fly down to Mexico. Land about 5 am. Sit for about an hour. Leave Mexico and fly to Houston. Land about 8:15 or so. They have had these where you have 24 hours off in LA before you do it or they have them where you DH to LAX, off for about 12 hours then do it. The latter works out great for SOCAL commuters. They get paid to go to work.

I've done the LA red-eye both ways. I find it really hard to make myself go to sleep in the early afternoon to get rested for the night flight. Plus, I'm like Doug. I'm gone when the sun hits my eyes after a late-night flight.

Either way, I prefer to fly on the front side of the clock.

[blee256]

I have done my fair share of CDOs at my airline.

1 or 2 is fine. Its the 3rd or 4th in a row that i hate.

[Bog]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Do you know how to end that? If you've got a mid-day sit of 4 hours, negotiate a hotel in the next contract.

Yes, you'll see a lot of 3:55 sits but at least there's a 'cap' of sorts.

We had that in the old contract. Lost that, along with a few other things. But ... let's not go THERE. Enough said.

Yes, we used to see sits of 3:58, 3:59, etc, just to avoid it. Typical corporate BS. Just build efficient schedules and this won't be a major cost.

[CFIse]

I think they're safe (or at east "as safe as other schedules") providing the crew is professional and manages their rest time to ensure they are rested for the trip.

People who say "I can't rest at home during the day because...." aren't managing their rest time - if that makes them unsafe that's hardly an industry problem.

An 8:00AM to 5:00PM day trip is unsafe if the pilot doesn't sleep the night before. But what can we do, not schedule day trips because some pilots like to hang out with their friends all night?

Overall airline scheduling doesn't not provide sufficient safeguards to ensure that pilots CAN get the rest they need at all times, so generally I'd say airline schedules aren't as safe as they could be from a rest perspective, but I don't believe CDOs are any less safe. I'm not saying I LIKE them, but.....

[kellwolf]

People who say "I can't rest at home during the day because...." aren't managing their rest time - if that makes them unsafe that's hardly an industry problem.

Trust me, I'm open to suggestions as to how to "manage my rest time" and watch my 1 1/2 year old at the same time.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Trust me, I'm open to suggestions as to how to "manage my rest time" and watch my 1 1/2 year old at the same time.

I don't know you, and it's presumptious of me to manage your life. But who watches your 1 1/2 year old when you are working day trips? The fact that your "rest period" is scheduled during the daylight hours isn't an excuse to engage in other activities and not get sufficient rest.

Sleeping during the day is hard, there are certainly going to be conflicting calls on your time, but to argue that because of that you cannot get sufficient rest is, in my opinion, unprofessional. Whether you are unprofessional is something only you know, I'm not accusing you of anything, and based on your other posts I suspect you are not.

So to return to the original question, CDOs are not unsafe, if pilots are making them unsafe that's a problem of professionalism and meeting the requirements of their job. There are lots of ways I can make a schedule that does not contain CDOs unsafe, but if I do that then I would be considered unprofessional by my peers, why do CDOs make any difference?

And again - don't get me wrong, if CDOs went away tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear - but I know a few people who would. A good friend of mine bids CDOs so that he can be home to share in taking and picking up his kids from school and putting them to bed. He manages his rest time and in talking to him I don't think he's any more tired after 5 days of CDOs than I am after a 1 day and a 4 day put back to back that don't contain CDOs. My friend would be unhappy if he lost CDOs because he would perceive that as a loss of QOL in a situation that he has figured out how to manage.

Pilot fatigue is an issue, but getting rid of CDOs isn't the solution (and I wish I knew what was, because if you try and think through the details there's no easy answers - well there are but they're not practical).

[rausda27]

I was going to ask the same thing Kellwolf. The CDO lines where I work are contractually set at 3 CDOs in a row followed by at least 2 days off. Most CDO lines have between 10 and 12 days off a month. (mostly 10) With day lines I am able to bid 4 day trips over weekends giving me at least 3 days off during the week, which my wife will work. My wife and I have opposite schedules but we dont require daycare and my only obligations on my days off are to send my uniform to the dry cleaners and spend quality time with my daughter. The CDO lines however have no pattern to them besides the 3 on 2 off requirement, which doesnt leave enough days during the week for my wife to get her 3 shifts in. Not every pilot is a single, childless and or petless person with little or no daily obligations that allow ample time to lay around and sleep away the time bewtween consecutive CDOs.

In response to CFIses' comment about rest managment, all I can say is I am one of the people that says I am unable to get adequate rest if I were to bid a CDO line due to my obligations to my family. This is one of the reasons why I dont fly CDO trips irregardless of the fact that I also feel they can increase the probablilty of pilot fatigue while performing work duties.

[kellwolf]

See, that's why I try to get weekends off. My wife works during the days, so we have daycare during the week. Now, here's the delima being reserve:

My reserve time is 7 am-7 pm, yet I often get called at 8 am, told "you're released for rest, so you can do this CDO in DTW tonight." Great, now I have to shift gears. I can a) stay up until my DH flight from MEM-DTW leave, then fly the CDO, get 3-4 hours of sleep, then fly back to DTW from wherever or b) attempt to go BACK to sleep for several hours, either one is gonna serious screw with sleep/awake patterns.

I wish the CDOs we have had some kinda pattern. Often they're sorta mixed with other lines. Example: earlier this month, I flew a CDO which had been tacked onto the beginning of a four day trip. As long as there's 10 hours b/w when you get back from your CDO and the first leg of the four leg, it's legal.

Like I said earlier, I'd have no problem with the CDOs if a) they were grouped together better and b) they paid a higher credit than a normal trip. As it is at my airline, I think it's a fatigue issues waiting to happen with no rewards for intentionally bidding them. I said it before, but it bears repeating. EVERY other job I had that had back of the clock hours paid a higher wage to compensate for that.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by rausda27

In response to CFIses' comment about rest managment, all I can say is I am one of the people that says I am unable to get adequate rest if I were to bid a CDO line due to my obligations to my family. This is one of the reasons why I dont fly CDO trips irregardless of the fact that I also feel they can increase the probablilty of pilot fatigue while performing work duties.

I don't bid certain overnights because I don't like the hotel (call me weird, lots of people do). But if I ended up with one of those lines I'd suck it up and go to bed.

Likewise if you (or anybody) ended up with a CDO I'd hope and expect that you'd be professional about it and manage your rest time so that it was not unsafe.

Therefore CDOs are not unsafe due to pilot fatigue. Annoying, a pain in the butt, undesirable - CDOs are all these things, but they are not unsafe.

[amorris311]

i dont want to sound like a total rook here but do legacy or major airlines have these cdo's?

[Doug Taylor]

My airline doesn't.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by amorris311

i dont want to sound like a total rook here but do legacy or major airlines have these cdo's?

I do know of a couple at one major, Northwest. Not sure about any other companies. At NWA though, there are so few of them that whoever wants them can get them and whoever doesn't want them doesn't get them. They are all DC-9 flights from the hubs and I can imagine some people might like them if they can get the kids in bed, head to the airport, do the flight, do the return flight in the morning and get home early and get some more rest during the day.

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by CFIse

I think they're safe (or at east "as safe as other schedules") providing the crew is professional and manages their rest time to ensure they are rested for the trip.

People who say "I can't rest at home during the day because...." aren't managing their rest time - if that makes them unsafe that's hardly an industry problem.

Ever hear of a circadian rhythm? How can it be considered unprofessional to not sleep when you're not tired? If you woke up after a normal night's sleep at 6am, there's no way you could command your body to sleep later that afternoon in order to be properly rested in advance of working a full shift later that night.

Mike

[Bandit_Driver]

I'll have to say they are unsafe. At my last airline they were very bad. If you didn't live in base and close to the airport you SOL for getting any kind of rest.

On the question of calling in fatingued I have seen it go both ways. At one company our FED and contract backed up the pilot and nothing could be done to a pilot for calling in fatigued. At another company I watched a pilot get a long suspension for doing it. It all depends on the company.

[DE727UPS]

"If you woke up after a normal night's sleep at 6am, there's no way you could command your body to sleep later that afternoon in order to be properly rested in advance of working a full shift later that night."

Yeah. I know I couldn't. I've seen folks that can fall asleep at the drop of a hat but I'm not one of those guys.

[MQAAord]

At Eagle the standups were exclusively in standup lines. So if you had standups, you had only standups and nothing but standups for the entire month.

Unless you were on reserve, in which case you were, well, scheduling's 'love slave'. So to speak.

American didn't have standups like Eagle, but I sure did my share of allnighters. I actually liked the transcon allnighters when I was based in LGA.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Unless you were on reserve, in which case you were, well, scheduling's 'love slave'. So to speak

Ain't no love in this relationship b/w me and scheduling. BTW, guess who just found out he's being DHed to DTW for more CDOs next week?

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Ain't no love in this relationship b/w me and scheduling. BTW, guess who just found out he's being DHed to DTW for more CDOs next week?

Ouch! Love Slave.....prepare to be loved.....LOL

[Doug Taylor]

It probably wouldn't be bad if you could anticipate the CDO's.

But I think the problem is when one of the CDO pilots call in sick. According to the FAR's (not specific collective bargaining agreements) as a reserve you can really get screwed.

Yet again, the Feds don't care so why even bring it up.