Continuous Duty Overnights. Your thoughts?

[B767Driver]

A coast to coast red-eye can be tough...especially if you've not rested well before hand. In my experience, however, I can rest really poorly during the day...then feel very alert all night long. The impaired feeling is delayed until mid afternoon or the next day...and it can hit hard.

The key is to only have one leg to fly. If there's another leg tagged on to the end...forget about it...impaired city.

[mrivc211]

If it's legal your safe

LOL

[sm203900]

Back in the day when I worked in the scheduling (yes you can throw pooh at me) there were specific guidelines to crewmembers working high speeds, cds, or whatever you want to call them. Line holders could only be assigned to three in a row, i think, anything more and crewmembers had to specifically request to fly them. IF you working as a reserve you could only do two in a row. Some crewmembers loved them because you were guaranteed a hotel room and you only flew two legs in a twenty-four hour periond. Others hated them because you were basically working the back side of the clock. My opinion is that it will depend on the person flying them. It is not a bad thing if you prefer to work those flights and your body can handle the adjustment.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by aloft

Is a CDO any better or worse than a coast-to-coast redeye?

I've done both, more or less.

Not coast to coast like LAX to BOS, but lots of LAX-ATL on the 727 at o'dark thirty.

A coast to coast redeye is way easier than a CDO in my personal opinion. It might be opposite for someone else.

I'm a nightowl so I'm usually way more alert (and entertaining!) at night/early morning. But on less than 3 hours of sleep when my body expects a standard sleep cycle, I'm useless.

I think after a while your body starts to think, "Ok, we're at the hotel, let's check email and sleep for about seven hours" but if you're only getting three or four, no matter if you napped all day, your brain is still anticipating the normal cycle.

But if I can sleep pretty good during the day, report to the airport at 2200 for a 2300 departure with a cup of coffee and some decent reading material, I'm golden... until the sun rises... then my brain starts shutting down.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by sm203900

Others hated them because you were basically working the back side of the clock. My opinion is that it will depend on the person flying them. It is not a bad thing if you prefer to work those flights and your body can handle the adjustment.

The problem, I think is when people that function well on CDO's have to call in sick.

Then you're calling a reserve pilot, pretty much a few hours before he was about to hit the sack and say "Guess what? You're reporting in two hours for a 2300 departure to do a high-speed in Dallas and two legs home".

It's completely legal. The reserve pilot is on 'rest' at home and probably hasn't been used for at least 12 hours so he's legally available for the flying.

But the ramifications for a junior reserve pilot telling his scheduler, "Umm, I've been up all day and not rested for a trip of that nature"....

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

My dad is a 'lay on the couch in my office for 10 minutes and be on the ball when I wake up'

I'm the 'lay on the couch and die for 3 hours and wake up with horrible breath' kind of napper.

This is very simple. You laying there is more like passing out and your breath smells 'cause thats what Vodka smells like when after you've pounded a few and passed out on the couch.

[sm203900]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

The problem, I think is when people that function well on CDO's have to call in sick.

Then you're calling a reserve pilot, pretty much a few hours before he was about to hit the sack and say "Guess what? You're reporting in two hours for a 2300 departure to do a high-speed in Dallas and two legs home".

It's completely legal. The reserve pilot is on 'rest' at home and probably hasn't been used for at least 12 hours so he's legally available for the flying.

But the ramifications for a junior reserve pilot telling his scheduler, "Umm, I've been up all day and not rested for a trip of that nature"....

I guess I should have mentioned this as well, the reserve guys/gals that were called out for cds were on a late night window, i.e. did not go on call until 7:30 or 9:00 pm at night. Again it is going to depend on the person, some of the more senior pilots had the ability to bid these, but there were also the fresh face just finished ioe pilots that were stuck with these because the company needed to fill the slots.

My personal opinion, I think that it would be far more valuable to have an actual overnight. I am not a night owl, but due to my seniority I am forced to work the late shift. I have adjusted to it but that does not mean that during the last few hours of my day I am at the top of my game. Give them the sleep and you are less likely to have the fatigue call and if nothing else you may boost morale

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

The problem, I think is when people that function well on CDO's have to call in sick.

Then you're calling a reserve pilot, pretty much a few hours before he was about to hit the sack and say "Guess what? You're reporting in two hours for a 2300 departure to do a high-speed in Dallas and two legs home".

It's completely legal. The reserve pilot is on 'rest' at home and probably hasn't been used for at least 12 hours so he's legally available for the flying.

But the ramifications for a junior reserve pilot telling his scheduler, "Umm, I've been up all day and not rested for a trip of that nature"....

Doug
I do not think that is a valid "scenario". I believe this is an FAA ruling, but I could be wrong.

At PDT we had a reserve 'start' time. 15.5 hours from that time you were a pumpkin. That prevented scheduling from doing what you describe. Technically you are on "duty" since you are on call at home.

Not really important to this thread, and I will be damned if I can find the ruling from the FAA.

[Doug Taylor]

Actually, when I sat reserve at my last airline, pre-contract we had no 'windows'. So a reserve day was a reserve day. I was one of the lucky skunks at my present airline and never sat reserve except for about a week before I got an SRL/supplemental reserve line with pre-scheduled trips.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

While not yet a professional airline pilot...yet! I am a night owl. Went to bed last night at 5:30am.

I'll agree with you about power naps,they're friggin wonderful. I tend to power nap at my last few job. Either on my two 15 min breaks but definately on my hour lunch.

Same thing at my current job. For me it tires me out more to try to stay awake when I'm exhausted then just to take a quick power nap and wake up refreshed. It could only be for 10 mins. but that 10 min nap will give me energy to stay both awake and alert for about an hour longer then if I fought sleep.

At Chase I tried explain this to co-workers but they simply couldn't grasp it saying that they could never sleep on the job!

Whaddeva...

I'm same way, working at USAA from 1AM-7AM. I'd lay down in the break room for 20 minutes during my break, then get up and finish my shift. If I didn't hate talking to people on the phone for a living I'd continue being employed there.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Doug
I do not think that is a valid "scenario". I believe this is an FAA ruling, but I could be wrong.

At PDT we had a reserve 'start' time. 15.5 hours from that time you were a pumpkin. That prevented scheduling from doing what you describe. Technically you are on "duty" since you are on call at home.

Not really important to this thread, and I will be damned if I can find the ruling from the FAA.

Oh, there are ways around this, trust me. For example, my reserve start time is 7 AM. I get the call at 8 AM "We have a high speed for ya in DTW tonight, so we're going to DH you up there late this afternoon. In the meantime, you're released to get your required rest. We'll call you later with the details." Not nice, but totally legal in the eyes of the FAA and the pilot contract. So, I was aready awake with my kid, and NOW I have to take him in to daycare, come home and try to go back to sleep, yet I still have to get a phone call notifying me of not only my show time, but where the hell I'm going that night. This is legally called "rest."

Like was mentioned previously, I'm normally okay on the 1st leg after a CDO (mainy b/c I'm just delerious from sleep deprivation). It's some of the reduced rest overnight, I think, can be worse. With CDOs, you can't go over 15.5 hours of duty, so they more or less have to release you when you get back. If WX is a factor on both ends of the CDO, you're screwed, though. On the reduced rest overnights (let's take DEN for example), the hotel can be (and IS in DEN) about 30 minutes from the airport. Well, you just lost an hour there. It takes time to get ready in the morning and un-ready at night, so we'll call that another 45-60 minutes. So, you're looking at a 6 hour night's sleep if you're lucky, which is often bookended by 5-6 leg days. Ask me how useful I am on that 6th leg the second day.

I think rest periods are one of the serious problems in the airline industry today. 8 hours of rest does not mean 8 hours of sleep. A pilot should never have to make the decision b/w "Do I eat when I get to the hotel" or "Do I sleep when I get there." Both are essential to functioning in a highly alert state.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

I think rest periods are one of the serious problems in the airline industry today. 8 hours of rest does not mean 8 hours of sleep. A pilot should never have to make the decision b/w "Do I eat when I get to the hotel" or "Do I sleep when I get there." Both are essential to functioning in a highly alert state.

Very nicely said. Hope the FAA gets their heads out of their A$$ and change this.

[Bog]

When I was a senior FO in PHX, I bid standups. Up to three in a row was no problem; the 4th one you knew your body was getting tired. There was a time or two that I'd swtich days and get a block of 5, but in those blocks I would sleep 6+ hours at home during the day and whatever I could get at the hotel that night.

Our worst, back then, were in AUS and SAT, where we'd have about 4 1/2 hours from block-in to report. Those were hard. MFD standups were great, because we could get 6 hours of actual sleep time at the hotel, if we were on-time leaving PHX.

Adding a quick r/t to the front end of the standup wasn't too bad. Any thought of adding one to the back end ... screw that.

Many of our PHX crews are flying shifts that include 3-4 hours "sits" (aka sleepovers in the airplane) in several outstations due to our lackluster scheduling. It's one of those "legal, but not safe" things that continues to get scheduled because our crews continue to fly them. We, as crew members, have to stop flying unsafe shifts. The FAA, NTSB, and management teams will never change things as long as we do.

[Doug Taylor]

Do you know how to end that? If you've got a mid-day sit of 4 hours, negotiate a hotel in the next contract.

Yes, you'll see a lot of 3:55 sits but at least there's a 'cap' of sorts.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Do you know how to end that? If you've got a mid-day sit of 4 hours, negotiate a hotel in the next contract.

Yes, you'll see a lot of 3:55 sits but at least there's a 'cap' of sorts.

Well Doug, you make it sound like it is as easy as saying "We don't want 4 + hour sits" during the next contract negotiations, it ain't that easy.

[My Flight Surgeon]

Dr Hudson from ALPA had some nice comments on fatigue in September 2005. It is a real problem.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...2206&Tabid=256

[LoadMasterC141]

Until I read through this thread, I had always “Ass”umed that civilian crews had the same crew rest rules as the military. Our minimum crew rest was 15 hours 15 minutes from the time you got to the hotel until takeoff the next day. So basically, subtract 3 hours 15 minutes (Van time) and you have a minimum of 12 hours in the hotel. Now that was violated a little here and there, but nothing like what you guys describe happens in the civvy world.

From what I am reading, the law is 8 hours block in to block out? Wow. That is worse than the DOT’s Hours-Of-Service requirements for a truck driver (Must have 10 hours OFF, or 2 periods in the sleeper berth, one not being less than 8 hours, which add up to 10 hours, for every 11 hours of driving, 14 hours on-duty).

Dear lord tell me I am mistaken?

[DE727UPS]

It's even better than that. Transportation to and from the hotel counts as rest...

FAA rest rules have been worse than trucker rest rules for years. It's really nuts. The good thing is the pilots unions often negotiate better rules (see why I'm rabidly pro-union vs the alternative)

9.5 hours is our min rest at an outstation. There is language where they can reduce it for this and that but they know they are asking for a fatigue call if they do it, so I don't think it happens much.

[LoadMasterC141]

So I am guessing fatigue calls happen a lot? Can a pilot be fired for calling in fatigued when they did not have enough scheduled rest?

In the AF, we had a means to “re-declare crew rest” IF we were in any way disturbed during our off time. I only remember it being used once: We got a call from ops in the middle of the night while in Naples, Italy. It seems we needed to taxi the aircraft to another spot so an inbound C-5 had somewhere to park. The AC was ticked and re-declared for the whole crew.

What is the max duty day for civvy again? In the AF, I really cannot remember all the details, but I think it could go as high as 24 or 26 hours with an augmented crew (3 pilots, 2 loads) Generally, I believe it was 16 hours. Also, at the end of a mission, you got one day of post-mission crew rest for every 3 days you were out, up to a total of 3 days (I heard this went up since I left). A good point is that I am quoting MY rules current from 1998. I am sure they all changed a little.

[Dugie8]

LoadMaster
I don't know if fatigue calls happen a lot or not. The fear of being fired for complying with regulation keeps most of us, myself included, flying when we shouldn't be. I finally pulled the pin and took some sick days this last week for my back, but I still shouldn't be going back out, but much more than 6 days in a row for a sick call and things get a little dicey.

[DE727UPS]

"Can a pilot be fired for calling in fatigued when they did not have enough scheduled rest?"

You're leaving the area regarding FAA rules and getting into flight crew labor policies. Lots of variables in that. Some scumbag type outfits I suppose you could get fired. Where I work, the big fight isn't over getting fired so much as getting paid. If you call fatigue, they will charge you for sick time. They see it the same as calling in sick. The union will fight that they shouldn't charge you sick time for a fatigue call, as you really aren't sick, but just unable to perform due to a company induced scheduling situation or a poor hotel situation.

[LoadMasterC141]

I think I am finally starting to understand a phrase told to me by a JC’er when I first got here a few months back,

“I love my job from the time the cockpit door closes until it opens again”

Yup it is making sense now.[/font]

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

It's even better than that. Transportation to and from the hotel counts as rest...

Yup.

Assuming your transportation provider to the hotel isn't giving the patented, "five more minutes!" which usually turns out to be 15 or 20.

I think it's important to seperate "legal" and "contractural".

We have a guaranteed 8 hours "behind the door" clause in our contract. But the FAA doesn't give a hoot as long as there's a 8 hour 'break in duty'.

If you're waiting for a late hotel van, you're not on duty. Or if the hotel doesn't have a special 'crew area' at the front desk and they're not playing ball with the keys, you're still considered on rest.

I'd say, at best, on an 9 hour layover, I've probably gotten, at best, about 6 hours of sleep if I've already eaten, have a shirt that can last another day and I'm not wired from shooting a intense approach.

[Lee D]

"Stand Ups" always seem to go VERY senior at SKYW. Some guys really like them. Though I think I would probably get tired after a week or two of it. But the people that like them have the attitude that you stay home all day, fly a relatively short flight, go to bed, fly home and have all day to do what you want. Low flight time but high credit. Minimal time away from home.

I have picked up a few from time to time. They can a good way to get 5 or 6 hours of credit with very little effort. (Compare to the 8 leg day I did yesterday for about 6.5 hours of credit.) I'm sure the whole thing can burn you every once in awhile though.

Personally I feel like I need a minimum of 11 hours on a layover. I can't shut my mind off as soon as I get into the hotel.

[Doug Taylor]

It's that guy who was blocking the line at Starbucks... GET IM!