Who knows about...

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by CARL0S

neither,
What's trolling?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

[flyover]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

And what old days are you talking about? Until recent decades, the majority of airline pilots were ex-military pilots. When did they just get training and hop in a big Boeing?

I'd say the 60s primarily. Some were doing it into the early 80s, prime example being UAL. Not sure about 250 hours, but definitely 350-500 hours.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by flyover

I'd say the 60s primarily. Some were doing it into the early 80s, prime example being UAL. Not sure about 250 hours, but definitely 350-500 hours.

I can back that up. A retired TWA guy I know had an interesting story from their zero-time program that he go hired through. 42 hours total time when he was hired.

He graduated college with a degree in economics. Vietnam War was going on and he had no idea what he wanted to do with his life. Got a job as a baggage handler at TWA. After a few months he fell in love with the airplanes and decided to go get his private license. Got that in a Cessna 150 and the company had just started the zero-time program in which pilots could essentially be hired with near zero time.

He went to the interview during the middle of the week. On Friday of that week he got back from taking his first passenger up for a ride since getting his private certificate at 40 hours. Phone call -- HIRED.

On Monday he was in the 707 simulator -- flight engineer school. Went on to the right seat towards the end of the first year, upgraded to 707 captain after a couple years, then L-1011 captain, then the last eight years as 747 captain. At age 58 he retired when they offered him a deal he could not refuse.

So, the extremely low hours at hire in fact did happen for a short time. Military pilots were being retained by the military for the war and the airlines needed people.

I'm guessing 42 hours total time at a major airline interview probably won't be back anytime soon.

[CARL0S]

Originally Posted by Nick

He went to the interview during the middle of the week. On Friday of that week he got back from taking his first passenger up for a ride since getting his private certificate at 40 hours. Phone call -- HIRED.

On Monday he was in the 707 simulator -- flight engineer school. Went on to the right seat towards the end of the first year, upgraded to 707 captain after a couple years, then L-1011 captain, then the last eight years as 747 captain. At age 58 he retired when they offered him a deal he could not refuse.

So, the extremely low hours at hire in fact did happen for a short time. Military pilots were being retained by the military for the war and the airlines needed people.

I'm guessing 42 hours total time at a major airline interview probably won't be back anytime soon.

amazing

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Nick

I can back that up. A retired TWA guy I know had an interesting story from their zero-time program that he go hired through. 42 hours total time when he was hired.

He graduated college with a degree in economics. Vietnam War was going on and he had no idea what he wanted to do with his life. Got a job as a baggage handler at TWA. After a few months he fell in love with the airplanes and decided to go get his private license. Got that in a Cessna 150 and the company had just started the zero-time program in which pilots could essentially be hired with near zero time.

He went to the interview during the middle of the week. On Friday of that week he got back from taking his first passenger up for a ride since getting his private certificate at 40 hours. Phone call -- HIRED.

On Monday he was in the 707 simulator -- flight engineer school. Went on to the right seat towards the end of the first year, upgraded to 707 captain after a couple years, then L-1011 captain, then the last eight years as 747 captain. At age 58 he retired when they offered him a deal he could not refuse.

So, the extremely low hours at hire in fact did happen for a short time. Military pilots were being retained by the military for the war and the airlines needed people.

I'm guessing 42 hours total time at a major airline interview probably won't be back anytime soon.

This story may be true...but I'm going to throw the BS flag. I was a pilot for TWA for a short stint and flew with all kinds of guys hired during and after the Vietnam War. Almost every captain I flew with was a vietnam vet. Anyway...In the late 60's early 70's TWA was the premier airline in the world. You needed a moon landing to get hired. They hired very experienced, high time, cream of the crop guys. I've never heard of their "zero" time program...although I'm not going to say definitively there wasn't an experiment taking place with a few guys.

More than likely what happened...he was hired as a professional FE. They hired those types back then. In the late 70's they quit hiring PFE's and hired pilots into the FE seat...who could then progress upward to FO...then to Captain. At that point in time...all PFE's had a chance to earn their pilot ratings and qualify as a pilot. Many did not pass the proficiency program and rode life to retirement as a PFE. Some of them were still around in the mid to late 90's.

This guy probably successfully made the upgrade...even though he had very few hours. Very few guys were successful in the upgrade...and it wasn't a matter of just a couple of years. Many guys were FE's for 15 years or longer. It could be possible however, that he timed it just perfectly. He was hired when the PFE restriction was lifted and rode a bow wave to the FO seat. The quick timing is just not adding up, however.

As far as the retirement offer he couldn't refuse...well this is the part of the story that makes me throw the BS flag. Let's say he was 23 at date of hire in 1968. When he retired at age 58 it would be 2003. American would have just acquired TWA out of bankruptcy...plus the post 9/11 mess...I know of no special retirement deals going on at this point in time for TWA pilots...or AMR pilots...in fact...the TWA pilots were severely hosed on their retirement past 1992.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I am quickly approaching 250 hours and am doing some Part91 flying for business. I need to get my commerical as I have already had to decline doing any trips that I was not schedule to also attend. I can tell you that I SHOULD NOT BE FLYING A JET. Would I like to, YES! One client is thinking of getting a King Air, I am just trying to figure out how I could get PIC time in it!

Its either that or JetU for me!

[Kristie]

hey hey hey..give the guy a chance here...not everyone knows the answers to every question known to man!

the easy answer is "NO", there are no "airline" or "professional" type jobs that will hire someone with such low time. the professional jobs are for those who have worked their way up the ladder (however they've done it) and have the experience to handle a professional flying gig. 250 hours is not nearly professional enough to be able to handle an emergency without #####ing your pants!

[SkyHawg]

My question is why anyone in their right mind would want to fly a jet with only 250TT. It's one thing to put my own life on the line but to put other people's life on the line when I am still learning the ropes. That would concern me. And frankly scare the @!(*& out of me.

Now 500TT with 300-400ME might calm my nerves some. But who knows I am just a newbie.

[ABP52380]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

This story may be true...but I'm going to throw the BS flag. I was a pilot for TWA for a short stint and flew with all kinds of guys hired during and after the Vietnam War. Almost every captain I flew with was a vietnam vet. Anyway...In the late 60's early 70's TWA was the premier airline in the world. You needed a moon landing to get hired. They hired very experienced, high time, cream of the crop guys. I've never heard of their "zero" time program...although I'm not going to say definitively there wasn't an experiment taking place with a few guys.

More than likely what happened...he was hired as a professional FE. They hired those types back then. In the late 70's they quit hiring PFE's and hired pilots into the FE seat...who could then progress upward to FO...then to Captain. At that point in time...all PFE's had a chance to earn their pilot ratings and qualify as a pilot. Many did not pass the proficiency program and rode life to retirement as a PFE. Some of them were still around in the mid to late 90's.

This guy probably successfully made the upgrade...even though he had very few hours. Very few guys were successful in the upgrade...and it wasn't a matter of just a couple of years. Many guys were FE's for 15 years or longer. It could be possible however, that he timed it just perfectly. He was hired when the PFE restriction was lifted and rode a bow wave to the FO seat. The quick timing is just not adding up, however.

As far as the retirement offer he couldn't refuse...well this is the part of the story that makes me throw the BS flag. Let's say he was 23 at date of hire in 1968. When he retired at age 58 it would be 2003. American would have just acquired TWA out of bankruptcy...plus the post 9/11 mess...I know of no special retirement deals going on at this point in time for TWA pilots...or AMR pilots...in fact...the TWA pilots were severely hosed on their retirement past 1992.

My fathers childhood friend retired about 4-5 years ago from NW - senior 47 captain. He was 'one of those guys' that just hit it perfectly. Both he and my dad were working on their commercial's when Vietnam required my father to enlist (he got fortunate and was alloted a spot in the reserves, although they were at 104% occupancy). Meanwhile, his buddy was married and didn't have to go. What happened? With his freshly minted commercial certificate NW hired him into the 707 as a FE. He climbed his way up and spent almost 40 years with that company. By the time my dad finished his 4 years of service the market was flooded with Vietnam pilots with thousands of hours -- supply and demand.

Those stories are definately out there.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by ABP52380

With his freshly minted commercial certificate NW hired him into the 707 as a FE. He climbed his way up and spent almost 40 years with that company. By the time my dad finished his 4 years of service the market was flooded with Vietnam pilots with thousands of hours -- supply and demand.

Those stories are definately out there.

Speaking of, with NW still flying the -10, I suppose they're one of the last of the domestic pax operators still requiring an FE written or better? Per chance, do they still use PFEs? I remember Doug telling me that there were still some PFEs left at Delta up until the end of the L-1011 and 727.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

This story may be true...but I'm going to throw the BS flag. I was a pilot for TWA for a short stint and flew with all kinds of guys hired during and after the Vietnam War. Almost every captain I flew with was a vietnam vet. Anyway...In the late 60's early 70's TWA was the premier airline in the world. You needed a moon landing to get hired. They hired very experienced, high time, cream of the crop guys. I've never heard of their "zero" time program...although I'm not going to say definitively there wasn't an experiment taking place with a few guys.

More than likely what happened...he was hired as a professional FE. They hired those types back then. In the late 70's they quit hiring PFE's and hired pilots into the FE seat...who could then progress upward to FO...then to Captain. At that point in time...all PFE's had a chance to earn their pilot ratings and qualify as a pilot. Many did not pass the proficiency program and rode life to retirement as a PFE. Some of them were still around in the mid to late 90's.

This guy probably successfully made the upgrade...even though he had very few hours. Very few guys were successful in the upgrade...and it wasn't a matter of just a couple of years. Many guys were FE's for 15 years or longer. It could be possible however, that he timed it just perfectly. He was hired when the PFE restriction was lifted and rode a bow wave to the FO seat. The quick timing is just not adding up, however.

As far as the retirement offer he couldn't refuse...well this is the part of the story that makes me throw the BS flag. Let's say he was 23 at date of hire in 1968. When he retired at age 58 it would be 2003. American would have just acquired TWA out of bankruptcy...plus the post 9/11 mess...I know of no special retirement deals going on at this point in time for TWA pilots...or AMR pilots...in fact...the TWA pilots were severely hosed on their retirement past 1992.

I haven't spoken to him in a year or two and I don't know the specific times of each phase of his career. I do know that he didn't spend a very long time as FE, and he was hired with only a private pilot certificate and college degree. He retired around 1998, and he did specifically mention a zero time program at TWA. As you mentioned though, his progression was a rareity though I think I'm relaying accurate information. Specifically, that he had 42 hours in a Cessna 150 at the time of interview!

[Nick]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Speaking of, with NW still flying the -10, I suppose they're one of the last of the domestic pax operators still requiring an FE written or better? Per chance, do they still use PFEs? I remember Doug telling me that there were still some PFEs left at Delta up until the end of the L-1011 and 727.

I don't know of any PFEs at Northwest, just retired captains who want to work for a few more years. Of course with the retirement of the DC-10s next year they're going to be even fewer in numbers. After the -10s are gone, the only flight engineers will be the ANC based 747-200 folks. Sidenote: it's amazing how far some of them commute to fly boxes out of Alaska when they live near MEM/DTW/MSP/SEA.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

As far as the retirement offer he couldn't refuse...well this is the part of the story that makes me throw the BS flag. Let's say he was 23 at date of hire in 1968. When he retired at age 58 it would be 2003. American would have just acquired TWA out of bankruptcy...plus the post 9/11 mess...I know of no special retirement deals going on at this point in time for TWA pilots...or AMR pilots...in fact...the TWA pilots were severely hosed on their retirement past 1992.

I forgot to reply to this part. I probably worded my sentence poorly by saying it was a deal he could not refuse. What I meant by that was not they they were going to give him a chest filled with gold but rather, he ended up with more money in the end by stopping work at 58 instead of going another two years. Perhaps similar to the Delta pilots that recently retired early, though I'm not familiar with the details of that separate situation.

[mrivc211]

[quote=txpilot;422650] You'd better have some mad networking skills to get the job you're talking about, and even then it's mostly a pipe dream. QUOTE]



Ladies and gentleman, may I introduce the pimp of the decade, Mr Matt Szluka. But I agree with everyone, your not going to find the job at 250 hours. Matt being the exception, but I think he was above 300.

[SeanD]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I talked to a pilot from Singapore and he was sitting right seat at 275 hours and the government paid for all of his training. Works for me.

Im sure your joking. If not then remind me to never fly on Singapore.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by CARL0S

...pilots getting hired to fly at airlines (or corporate, or charters as far as that goes) with only 250TT, and skiping the CFI deal?

I know it is possible and usual outside the US.
What are your inputs about this?
Who would say no to an offer like this and why?

This discussion is like walking through a zoo of uncaged Lions.

I understand your question. I remember when I had 250TT, fresh out of school and still flying on a temporary Commercial certificate. I thought the Commercial certificate was my golden ticket to a sweet paying job. Unfortunately it is not, and to the pilot right out of school, its frustrating. After you spend thousands and thousands of dollars on flight training, all you're left with are some certificates and no way to get any job except flight instructor or banner towing. Even banner towing companies want at least 500TT.

It is one of the few career fields in which after you've dumped a ton of money in to, will not give you a return for awhile. I do not think that a 250hr pilot should hold any responsibility of piloting a jet or turbo prop. Sitting next to someone else who holds the responsibility while you learn, I don't see anything wrong with that. But in the 121 environment, that right seat is a required crew member, therefore you hold a lot of responsibility.

I have 400 now, I started instructing around 240. I am a much better pilot now then I was when I first started. Still I need a few more hundred hours, but I'm having a lot of fun and of course getting better at flying and teaching. Thats just the way the industry is dude, I wish it was different.

[DE727UPS]

"although I'm not going to say definitively there wasn't an experiment taking place with a few guys"

I remember in 94 or so, UPS hired two guys as an experiment from the Purdue program. I guess they have a program there where guys could get a lot of 727 sim time. The two experiment guys had around 1000 total and some CFI time, as well as being Purdue grads. They both went to the 727 as F/E's. I know for sure one is a Capt at UPS today. So, I guess the experiment was successful enough. So, why didn't UPS continue to hire more Purdue guys?

Safe to say it because they don't have any problem finding guys with 1000 PIC turbine.

"Matt being the exception, but I think he was above 300"

Matt also did an intership at the company he got hired to fly Saabs at.

[Cool2Fly]

Originally Posted by SeanD

Im sure your joking. If not then remind me to never fly on Singapore.

Negative, Singapore Airlines is is one of the best and safest airlines in the world. Lowtime pilots get right seat jobs all the time without paying for it. If they've been trained well and commit themselves to always improving there skill, my dad flew for Singapore Airlines and with 30,000+ hrs was learning right until he retired.
In my opinion, when the sh@t hits the large A/C whether the pilot has just flightschool hours or 1000hrs instructing it's goinng to really reflect what they learned in thier sim training on that "particular A/C". Just my input, hey this a forum right?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

He was referring to it being N57 I believe. I won't fly anything presently with him! n57 knows why, unless I am PIC

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Nick

I forgot to reply to this part. I probably worded my sentence poorly by saying it was a deal he could not refuse. What I meant by that was not they they were going to give him a chest filled with gold but rather, he ended up with more money in the end by stopping work at 58 instead of going another two years. Perhaps similar to the Delta pilots that recently retired early, though I'm not familiar with the details of that separate situation.

It's not my intention to flame this post...and will let it go. FWIW, the TWA pilots had a DC retirement plan that was 100% cash contribution. So he couldn't have gotten more by retiring early.

This is why 70% of all TWA FE positons were staffed by retired over age 60 pilots...because their retirement had been hit so severely. After mandatory age 60 retirement...they went back to the panel to make up for lost retirement funds.

Retiring any number of years early could substantially cut your retirement benefits. Substantially from the PBGC benefit and also from the DC plan.

You won't find too many TWA pilots taking too kindly to hearing about retiring with a sweet retirement plan.

[CapnJim]

Ok, I'm just going to bang out all the 6-pager topics, so we can take bets on where this one ends up!

1. PFT/PFJ, and all it iterations.

2. 250 hour jet pilots are teh s uck.

3. Anyone who takes a jet job for less than $xx is a communist.

4. Jesus made the dinosaurs.

5. President Boosh is Satan/Mother Theresa.

6. If you disagree with me you're a dangerous fool who will kill someone one day.

7. In Soviet Russia, thread creeps YOU!!

Place your bets, place your bets...

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

2. 250 hour jet pilots are teh s uck.

hahah!