Trans-Atlantic Terror Threat Busted

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Well then all electronics would have to be banned from the aircraft. Watch what happens when you take people iPods and laptops away.

Oh you "poor American" ... what's a little inconvienence for safety!?

Again .. they arenm't taking away or banning anything. They're just shoving would be explosives (that they can't detect) into a highly flammable area with little/suspect fire detection/suppression.

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by Kristie

if inconvenience costs ME money... your damn right i'd be pissed....the stuff they're asking everyone to throw away adds up financially...if inconvenice costs me time, that's something i can deal with.

think the commuting regional guys are saying "awww, it's only $2"...$2 adds up over time!!

While I see your point, I really don't see any long term effects of folks having to "throw away" their toiletries. Short term - as in today and for the next couple of days until everyone is "on line".

It's simple. Just check them through with your luggage. Just don't carry them on board any more.

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Oh you "poor Americn" ... what's a little inconvienence for safety!?

I dont care, I'm just saying you think people are mad now about their lipstick

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Oh you "poor Americn" ... what's a little inconvienence for safety!?

Hey, I'm cool with it. I don't use my computer when I'm dead-heading, nor do I even own an iPod. So, it's no skin off my nose. I either sleep, or read.

[bike21]

Oh and lets not forget about non-revving. Who the hell wants to check a bag? Sure, your bag gets to Seattle, but you are stuck cause there weren't enough seats.

I see it now, it's a conspiracy by the airlines to keep us from using our so called 'benefits' !!!!!!

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Offline jumpseaters don't need a 'security pass'. Who told you that and why are you doing that??? That is a significant waste of time.

The only time we need a 'security pass' is if our airline doesn't serve that airport. It has nothing to do with being offline.

In response to your first point about 'working crewmembers', we have been instructed to tell our domcilie managers the place and time we had difficulties with TSA and there are chains of command that will be used to 'fix' the problem screeners. FYI.

That was what I ment by "offline", sorry about the confusion. The airport that I work at is an all "regional airlines" we have several commuters that fly for their "mainline" counterparts. Thise mainline guys need the pass to get through.

As far as the 'working crewmembers', come on over to where I work. I see that stuff go on daily. I am not working durring the day today just 8pm to close (I will be tomorrow). I'll let you guys know what I see.

[Bandit_Driver]

Since when were flight crews ever the problem TSA needs to stop treating us like the general public.

Wonder if this will bring back crew meals. There's alot of us that run in and grab lunch and / or dinner during the 20 minute turn.

The company gave us the notice today that crews were exempt but TSA may not know the rules of the new directive.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I dont care, I'm just saying you think people are mad now about their lipstick

If you're going to debate, debate the main issues ... dont derail the (your) argument.

You're still missing the point. They are NOT "banning" anything. They are simply moving said "undetectable explosives" from the cabin to the cargo bin which is a highly flammable area. If they still can't detect said substances why on earth would you put them in the worst possible place on an aircraft?

At least going through security there is a face to face confrontation with another human being who can/might be able to tell if a person carrying said substances is acting "strange." Hell in checked luggage they don't even have to board the aircraft (yeah there's "100%" matching but you think it's 100% foolproof?).

With these considerations in tow this "procedure change" makes no sense whatsoever and it simply illustrtates that our "intellegence" failed, again, and the DHS got caught with their pants down, again, and that this is simply a smoke and mirrors, knee-jerk reaction to make people think we're on top of things, again.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by pilot602

If you're goingto debate debate the main issues ... dont derail the (your) argument.

You're still missing the point. They are NOT "banning" anything. They are simply moving said "undetectable explosives" from the cabin to the cargo bin which is a highly flammable area. If they still can't detect said substances why on earth would you put them in the worst possible place on an aircraft?

At least going through security there is a face to face confrontation with another human being who can/might be able to tell if a person carrying said substances is acting "strange." Hell in checked luggage they don't even have to board the aircraft (yeah there's "100%" matching but you think it's 100% foolproof?).

With these considerations in tow this "procedure change" makes no sense whatsoever and it simply illustrtates that our "intellegence" failed, again, and the DHS got caught with their pants down, again and that this is simply a smoke and mirrors, knee-jerk reaction to make people think we're on top of things.

Well said amigo!!

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by pilot602

They are simply moving said "undetectable explosives" from the cabin to the cargo bin which is a highly flammable area. If they still can't detect said substances why on earth would you put them in the worst possible place on an aircraft?

retarded, isn't it?

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by pilot602

If you're going to debate, debate the main issues ... dont derail the (your) argument.

You're still missing the point. They are NOT "banning" anything. They are simply moving said "undetectable explosives" from the cabin to the cargo bin which is a highly flammable area. If they still can't detect said substances why on earth would you put them in the worst possible place on an aircraft?

At least going through security there is a face to face confrontation with another human being who can/might be able to tell if a person carrying said substances is acting "strange." Hell in checked luggage they don't even have to board the aircraft (yeah there's "100%" matching but you think it's 100% foolproof?).

With these considerations in tow this "procedure change" makes no sense whatsoever and it simply illustrtates that our "intellegence" failed, again, and the DHS got caught with their pants down, again, and that this is simply a smoke and mirrors, knee-jerk reaction to make people think we're on top of things, again.

Im sorry I cant read your mind. The point is with this stuff in the belly there is a less chance of it beeing set off. Not much less. If everything was banned period everyone would still be crying about it beeing "kneejerk" so that is why I dont bother argueing. IF it was the other way you'd just be argueing the other side.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Im sorry I cant read your mind. The point is with this stuff in the belly there is a less chance of it beeing set off. Not much less. If everything was banned period everyone would still be crying about it beeing "kneejerk" so that is why I dont bother argueing. IF it was the other way you'd just be argueing the other side.

FTW. Seriously.

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by pilot602

FTW. Seriously.

LOL I had to look that up.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Champcar

So lets forget about security becasue $30 of makeup is so much more important. Wow our priorities are still the same.

i think you missed the "over time" portion...but i'm really talking more about those flying stand by who really can't check their bags because who knows if they'll even make it.. it's obvious that normal rev pax would put their items in their bags, fine and dandy.. but what bout the rest of us?

obviously this type of knee jerk reaction is going to continue for weeks, maybe months...over time, it's going to end up hitting our pocketbook because we will probably have to go out and continuallly collect new items when we arrive at our destinations...

not a horribly big deal but more of an inconvenice than last time, i think... i was wondering when this type of thing might happen...it'll be sweet if they get everything cleared up a lot faster than the last knee jerk reaction.

[planejay]

I am sure that I am not the only one who thinks this but shouldn't we be happy that it was stopped...even if it was just hours prior?? I imagine myself sitting on one of the planes and having to experience what could have happened. However, due to the work of someone, who's name I will never know, I can continue life, even if I do have to pack my toothpaste in the checked bag. All I see/hear is people complaining...this could have been a VERY bad day. I think we need to give credit were credit is due. I agree that something has to be done with security most ricky tick, but I look at today as a success because it was prevented.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by planejay

I am sure that I am not the only one who thinks this but shouldn't we be happy that it was stopped...even if it was just hours prior?? I imagine myself sitting on one of the planes and having to experience what could have happened. However, due to the work of someone, who's name I will never know, I can continue life, even if I do have to pack my toothpaste in the checked bag. All I see/hear is people complaining...this could have been a VERY bad day. I think we need to give credit were credit is due. I agree that something has to be done with security most ricky tick, but I look at today as a success because it was prevented.

Agreed. I think we are talking about the finer points of living and working within the industry under such rules and quick reactions.

I am very pleased and happy the intel worked and the bastards were stopped. However, we never hear about many many stories of everyday happenings that save us. There are many unsung heros out there (including a good buddy of mine in a particular federal agency) who will never be credited for all the work they do. Particularly our armed forces. They all rock!

That said, our government shouldn't use matters such as today to push an agenda. This will be great ammo for the continuation of the Bush Doctrine I am sure.

And now the governor's of California and Mass are sending the National Guard to the airports?! I refuse to live in a police state.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by bike21

And now the governor's of California and Mass are sending the National Guard to the airports?! I refuse to live in a police state.

You and me both.

Unfortunately, it is too late. We already live in a police state. Only thing we can do is put individuals who disagree with the Bush doctrine into office in the legislative and executive branches.

CT started it by nominating Lamont for the democrat nod. Now the rest of the country has to act.

[I_Money]

There are 2 things that come to mind - without carry on's what a boring, miserable flight you are going to have.

Also how are people going to ship laptops - they are too delicate/expensive to check in.

[kellwolf]

To me, this is just another item on a list of TSA "reforms" that's been happening in the past week. First we got the "have to get a security pass unless your airline serves the airport," now it's gone to "unless your airline serves this CONCOURSE," now we've got people in a fit over contact solution and toothpaste. Personally, I don't want to suit up everytime I non-rev, and my family doesn't even have THAT option. Who wants to spend the night in the airport b/c they didn't make the flight but their contact solution, toothpaste and hair gel did?

Wanna solve the problem, actually REFORM SECURITY. Don't change the policy eight times in three months. Spend some $$$ on actual detecting equipment that works instead of paying someone that doesn't even know their own policies to wave a wand or swab a bag. I don't fell (and haven't felt) any safer in the air than I did before 9/11. In fact, I've seen things get WORSE. We could throw the Ben Franklin quote about security and liberty around all day, but guess what? It applies. The government has decided that the best way to protect us is to ban anything that might be a danger instead of trying to find the danger itself. This is an ostrich approach that almost bit us in the a$$. The more people just go along with it, the more stuff is going to be banned. At some point, the public is gonna have to say "Okay, that's enough."

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

To me, this is just another item on a list of TSA "reforms" that's been happening in the past week. First we got the "have to get a security pass unless your airline serves the airport," now it's gone to "unless your airline serves this CONCOURSE," now we've got people in a fit over contact solution and toothpaste. Personally, I don't want to suit up everytime I non-rev, and my family doesn't even have THAT option. Who wants to spend the night in the airport b/c they didn't make the flight but their contact solution, toothpaste and hair gel did?

Wanna solve the problem, actually REFORM SECURITY. Don't change the policy eight times in three months. Spend some $$$ on actual detecting equipment that works instead of paying someone that doesn't even know their own policies to wave a wand or swab a bag. I don't fell (and haven't felt) any safer in the air than I did before 9/11. In fact, I've seen things get WORSE. We could throw the Ben Franklin quote about security and liberty around all day, but guess what? It applies. The government has decided that the best way to protect us is to ban anything that might be a danger instead of trying to find the danger itself. This is an ostrich approach that almost bit us in the a$$. The more people just go along with it, the more stuff is going to be banned. At some point, the public is gonna have to say "Okay, that's enough."

DING DING DING ... this is critical thinking folks.


If you're a >>>pilot<<< and can't think for yourself I sure as hell don't want you in the cockpit with me.

"Oh, well dispatch said I could ..."

[Mahesh]

Originally Posted by ready2fly

While I see your point, I really don't see any long term effects of folks having to "throw away" their toiletries. Short term - as in today and for the next couple of days until everyone is "on line".

It's simple. Just check them through with your luggage. Just don't carry them on board any more.

I totally agree! I think I have spent enough time in the lav that people know my views about the state of affairs in our leadership today, so I'm not making excuses for the DHS.

However, if the UK government just arrested 21 people saying that there was a plot to blow up US airlines using liquid explosives, I'd have to take some immediate measure, just in case, a parallel plot was being planned somehere else. I would ask people to leave behind their big gulps, try to check most things and bring a simple carryon bag which can be checked easily, until more information is available.

Now why these people want to do so much harm to us and who carrys part of the blame, is a separate topic which belongs in the Lav.

[Mahesh]

Originally Posted by pilot602

The "undetectable" substances are now just going into the underside ofthe aircraft. They aren't being banned completely. THAT is the point. If they are still being allowed on the aircraft and can't be "detected" what the HEL is the point of barring them from the cabin. THERE IS NO POINT.

and THAT is the point.

Well I think that they are trying to at least prevent certain chemicals, which if mixed together, blow up. It would take a person to do this. True, you could come up with some time delay mechanism and put the thing in the cargo hold but that would require electronics and hopefully it can be caught (if infact they are really X-raying all checked bags).

[kellwolf]

Oh, the bags get X-rayed. But, next time you go through a security checkpoint, look how closely the person running the machine is looking...or not looking. If it weren't for the metal detector beeping, I think some of those people might doze off. Who wants to watch The Bag Channel on TV all day?

[Mahesh]

True! I have noticed some TSOs watching the screens who look like they are in a trance. Perhaps they figured out how to sleep with their eyes open.

[ColMustard]

Originally Posted by pilot602

Again ... where was the action to head off this kind of plot months, weeks .. hell even days BEFORE the supposed plot. Waiting to hours AFTER sure seems like someone got caught with their pants down to me! Which REALLY instills a lot of faith in our "intellegence" community.

Whatever happened to the element of surprise? If we had started banning these materials a few days before, the terrorists would've caught a hint of this and destroyed all traces. Probably why they were able to make the twenty-some-odd arrests.

You don't show your hand before you gamble, play it with the Ace in the pocket, then its a win everytime.

On this same note, I think the intelligence system is certainly not perfect, but which system is? I assume most of the folks on here (me included) knows very little of the business that is the "intelligence industry". Let the pros do their job, and we'll do ours.

Just my $0.02

-ColM