An issue of...degree...

[killbilly]

What I really want to know is why major flying jobs require a college degree? I'd like a well-reasoned answer instead of "because it has always been this way."

My reasons are thus:

1) You don't need a degree to fly an RJ for many regionals, but you do for a 737. Is the skill difference between being able to effectively fly both aircraft determined by a degree - any degree - from a four-year institution? Further, I'd wager that the difference between flying an RJ and a 737 is much smaller than the difference between, say, a 172 and an RJ. Do you see my point? Does a degree make a pilot any more or less capable?

2) Considering that flying is taught like both a trade and a profession, and that there are no real "admission requirements" to get into a flight school, provided one is able to pay and demonstrate competence - what is the difference between equal pilots, one with and one without a degree?

3) The number of career changers who do not have degrees but do have strong work experience, some in management, potentially demonstrate just as much aptitude to crew at a major, yet are precluded from applying simply because they did not earn a college degree. Why is this? Especially since the airline doesn't care what the degree is? If they don't care about that, why do they care at all?

Further, I would argue that there are some highly respected executive MBA programs - a MASTERS degree - which can be earned without having a prior bachelor's degree. These are schools like Emory University or SMU, for example. Does an EMBA preclude you? Why should it?

So, with respect to aviation, (and aviation degrees notwithstanding) I just don't understand why a degree is such a requirement, especially since they no longer compensate pilots the way other degreed professions are.

I'd really like to know the reasons why, and I'm going to be sadly disappointed if the answer is merely because of inertia.

[turbojet28]

I'm guessing that it is similar to the law of supply and demand. Its not that the degree is "needed", its that you want to have something that not everyone else has when trying to climb a career ladder. It seems to be common sense that as one tries to get to a more prestigious job with more stiff competition, one would want to have a degree. I would think that the airlines that require a degree do so because that degree shows a lot about that person, not just what the degree is in.

[pilot602]

Because that's what the employer wants and if you don't have it someone else will. Do you need a degree to be a good pilot? ###### no! Will getting a job be easier if you do have one? Yes.

[MQAAord]

It's a 'qualifying factor', a way to weed out the volume/number of canidates that apply for the position.

Finishing college requires dedication, ambition, time, patience, and thought. All of which are desirable qualities in a canidate.

The whole 'college experience' usually has a very maturing effect on people.

These are 'generalizations', I know, but it helps the airline weed through canidates. And you know what? THEY CAN! There's plenty of pilots JUMPING and frothing at the mouth to get that coveted job with a major. They want the best canidates and they see a college degree as part of that.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by turbojet28

I would think that the airlines that require a degree do so because that degree shows a lot about that person, not just what the degree is in.

What does it show, to an airline? That the prospect can go to school and complete coursework? Remember, we're not talking about an advanced degree here, we're talking about a basic BA or BS degree.

Look - I'm not debating the necessity of degrees for certain fields - law or medicine, for example. But for flying - no disrespect to the profession (or those who have degrees, for that matter) intended but I just don't see how it would make you a better pilot.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by killbilly

What does it show, to an airline? That the prospect can go to school and complete coursework?

It shows..................:

Originally Posted by MQAAord

Finishing college requires dedication, ambition, time, patience, and thought. All of which are desirable qualities in a canidate.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by killbilly

What does it show, to an airline? That the prospect can go to school and complete coursework? Remember, we're not talking about an advanced degree here, we're talking about a basic BA or BS degree.

Look - I'm not debating the necessity of degrees for certain fields - law or medicine, for example. But for flying - no disrespect to the profession (or those who have degrees, for that matter) intended but I just don't see how it would make you a better pilot.

It doesn't show the airline squat. The sad fact of the matter is when HR deptarments starting poping up like the plague they are, they changed the rules. All the folks working in HR had degrees, they had to go through the circus that is college and the'll be dammned if they'd start hiring people who haven't gone through te same crap they did. It's that simple.

You don't need a degree to be a pilot. >>> BUT <<< it's their game and if they say they want a degree you'd better have one because the next 20 applicants will have exactly the same flight time you have AND a degree. Who are they gonna hire?

[MQAAord]

It also shows your teachable/trainable, you can study, and you can learn new things.


No doubt you can fly a plane and be an excellent pilot without a college degree. But the fact remains that it IS something that can and will set you a step above other canidates. In this market every bit helps. Also, it IS a requirement, like it or not. If you put as much energy into studying and GETTING that degree as you are squawking that it's not necessary, you'd have that degree by now!

[killbilly]

I know this, and I know it's their ballgame. It just doesn't strike me as particularly logical.

Originally Posted by MQAAord

If you put as much energy into studying and GETTING that degree as you are squawking that it's not necessary, you'd have that degree by now!

You're assuming that I don't have one.

Actually, I don't.

Circumstances, unfortunately, did not make that a real feasible option for me at the time - we won't go into that. However, at the age of 32, with a decent career behind me, I'm seeking a flying gig first, and then earning my degree afterward. In whatever, I don't know. Don't have to worry about that yet.

[ready2fly]

Because having a college degree means you're capable of completing a higher degree of complex courses. Because "here" or at a major, they absolutely will not spoon-feed you the information.

AND...to agree with Pilot602... because if they say they want one... you'd better have one.

[MQAAord]

My apologies for the assumption, though I did turn out to be right

I didn't have a degree until I was 27. I'd dropped out of the state university I attended right out of high school after 2 years. I finally got my degree in Flight Procedures. But I'm kicking myself now about that. I wish I'd found a program in meterology. Weather facinates me, and I'd much rather have spent the money & energy with that than the classes that I did take. Oh well. There's plenty of studying I can do on my own in the future when I actually have time & energy to spend studying again!

There are SO many opportunities out there for fully accredited online degrees!

[JaceTheAce]

"That's just the way it is"........... just like Bruce Hornsby said.

And because it's just stupidity to not have a college degree.

[C650CPT]

Another oft over looked reason is the pay issue. At a Major you can expect to earn a comfortable income. Compare that income with the accountants and other professional workers at the corporate office who do have degrees and will earn considerably less than you. It is a discriminator that helps off set petty jealosy, and they don't want to hear the arguement that a pilot has more resposabilities ... yada ... yada ... yada.

Jim

[stuckingfk]

I attribute the decline in pilot pay to many things, but one of the reasons is the lack of educated pilots.

Every airline should require it in my opinion. Granted the airline would lose some qualified applicants, but I think the overall profession would take a step forward if EVERY pilot had a degree.

[C650CPT]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

And because it's just stupidity to not have a college degree.

You calling me stupid ...

Actually there is no excuse to enter this job market without knowing the advantages to having a degree.

Jim

[launchpad]

I think it goes back to the fact that a college degree matures a person to a degree....a major airline is looking for a career employee...they want a person to be well rounded and well matured. A college degree, no matter how insignificant, is still a college degree. It shows maturity and dedication. A vocational qualification or degree only shows ability to pass a test. Being a pilot isn't a vocational type of field. It requires dedication, maturity and the judgement that comes with such traits. Major airlines are looking for people who will take care of their assets and customers in the most responsible way. A person who possesses a college degree meets this qualification. If you don't meet this requirement, and still want a career as a pilot, then go for it. If they hire you, great. If they don't, then think about why. It's most probably because you haven't proven yourself to be a responsible and dedicated professional......

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

"That's just the way it is"........... just like Bruce Hornsby said.

True.

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

And because it's just stupidity to not have a college degree.

Good manners prevent me from replying to the above statement as I'd originally intended. Really, Jace, think about what you just said. You're making the implication that people without degrees are stupid. That's...ignorant, and I don't think you meant it that way.

Originally Posted by launchpad

A vocational qualification or degree only shows ability to pass a test. Being a pilot isn't a vocational type of field. It requires dedication, maturity and the judgement that comes with such traits.

Not that I don't agree with you in principle, but how is piloting not a vocation in the sense of training? A set of skills and decisionmaking processes taught much like an apprenticeship is.

Originally Posted by launchpad

Major airlines are looking for people who will take care of their assets and customers in the most responsible way. A person who possesses a college degree meets this qualification. If you don't meet this requirement, and still want a career as a pilot, then go for it. If they hire you, great. If they don't, then think about why. It's most probably because you haven't proven yourself to be a responsible and dedicated professional.

In this final statement, I agree with you. My point is that there are responsible, dedicated professionals who have proven themselves - just not in the eyes of a hiring major airline, although one could argue they've done this in every other sense of the word.

Here's the main thing, though. I do plan on earning a degree in something I want rather than something I thought I might have needed at 18, y'know? (Astronomy comes to mind, creative writing as another) And I'd still earn the degree regardless. I was delighted to find out that one could, in fact, complete flight training and be eligible for all kinds of commercial flying, including a line, without a degree. This was part of what inspired me to finally pursue flying at my age - I could earn my ratings, begin to fly, and then earn my degree along the way. Lots of pilots are doing that. Gotta have one, gonna get one. Kills two birds with one stone - the want and the need.

Also, I have since found that both earning the ratings combined with my prior work experience does, in fact, give me a leg up - potentially knocks out my entire freshman year, actually, according to some of the admissions folks I've spoken with.

But over the last decade I've seen a lot of the reverse: over education with little practical resolve or experience. And ultimately, the degree really isn't the measure of the man/woman.

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

I attribute the decline in pilot pay to many things, but one of the reasons is the lack of educated pilots.

Every airline should require it in my opinion. Granted the airline would lose some qualified applicants, but I think the overall profession would take a step forward if EVERY pilot had a degree.

I'm not sure you can prove correllation to causation here. The airlines dropped the requirements after they dropped the pay, no?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

I attribute the decline in pilot pay to many things, but one of the reasons is the lack of educated pilots.

Every airline should require it in my opinion. Granted the airline would lose some qualified applicants, but I think the overall profession would take a step forward if EVERY pilot had a degree.

Why? So they can still pay us 30k a year?

[Adam2006]

I think it is a simply equation......pretend you are in charge of hiring for a major airline, and you need 100 more pilots for upcoming classes. Do you interview all 5000 applicants on file, or weed some out? In hopes of working for a major one day, I ask myself, "what qualities would I want in an employee representing my airline."

And yes, we jump through hoops with some classes(music appreciation), but I believe a degree speaks more about ones' character than ones' abilities to perform task.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by Adam2006

And yes, we jump through hoops with some classes(music appreciation), but I believe a degree speaks more about ones' character than ones' abilities to perform task.

Such as?

[LostComm]

The basic requirements to be an Astronaut involve completion of a bachelor's degree. As a practical matter most applicants to astronaut candidacy have far more than that.

The basic requirements for a pilot gig involve a commercial and instrument ticket. The reality is that an ATP, a CFI, and yes a BA/BS make a person more competitive. It doesn't mean it can't happen without these additional preferred quals, just that it's harder, and no matter what a person may fly, each upgrade the lack of quals will have to be defended.

Just my two cents...

LC

[lostplanetairman]

I know I said I wasn't posting for a few months, but this is my area of expertise...

With the current requirements for entry into the industry, I would refer to Griggs v Duke Power. Proove to us that there is a requirement for a college degree (especially since there wasn't one before to operate far more difficult aircraft).

[IT_Pilot]

Another thing you might consider in your pondering...The degree may not be for your peers. I'm in IT (really? Never guessed that one. ; )) and I will get my degree, BS in IT this saturday at the age of 38. I've come to the realization that one of the biggest reasons for having a degree is to send a sign to the people in the board room. The CEO, and the rest of the board do not understand IT/computers, they do understand a college degree. I'd wager a similar issue concerns the airlines. A lot of non pilot executives may not have any way at all to understand how to rate a pilot. They would have an idea on what it takes to get a BS or BA, and probably an MBA. Thats something they can relate to. Then only the chief pilot has to be confident in your skills, and (s)he is qualified to pass judgement. The HR department see's your degree and stops asking questions when they see you've met the minimums and smile at them when you talk to them politely.

This saturday I will bring a football into my last class and spike it afterwards outside! : ) WOOT WOOT! ! ! !

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by lostplanetairman

I know I said I wasn't posting for a few months, but this is my area of expertise...

With the current requirements for entry into the industry, I would refer to Griggs v Duke Power. Proove to us that there is a requirement for a college degree (especially since there wasn't one before to operate far more difficult aircraft).

Hmmm....brings up many interesting questions.

If I understand Griggs v Duke Power correctly, the Supreme Court ruled that Duke's pre-job-advancement requirements (intelligence tests and HS diploma) were not directly job related and ended up being discriminatory against blacks and, even if unintended, the discrimination made the employment requirement illegal because of the civil rights act.

It looks to me like there are two schools of thought on the ruling:

Either;
1. If an employment screening requirement is not directly related to job function it cannot cause discrimination of any type, otherwise it is prohibited, or;
2. An employment screening requirement must be directly job related or it is prohibited.

I am going to presume that you belong to the camp that believes that #2 above is the correct interpretation of the ruling, thus the way that you worded your comment.

I may have oversimplified, and feel free to elaborate further if you think that I have.

Maybe I should stop my thoughts here and let you chime in and elaborate on where you are going with the Griggs v Duke Power argument. I'm finding myself making many assumptions so far....

[CRoper]

My opinion may not be popular here...... If I had my way I would make a 4 year degree a requirement to even apply for a commercial pilots license. To me it's a matter of Thinning the herd. But in addition to that, I think it would add more respect to the job title. Just my opinion, good thing I'm not in charge I guess.....LOL