An issue of...degree...

[MQAAord]

Starting in 2008, an applicant to hold an Indiana real estate appraiser's license will have to have a bachelor's degree.

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by C650CPT

Actually there is no excuse to enter this job market without knowing the advantages to having a degree.

Jim

Hit it...on...the....head!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Why? So they can still pay us 30k a year?

No, to quote a cliche' "Short term sacrifice for long term gain."

[pkrgod]

chuck norris had a degree

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

No, to quote a cliche' "Short term sacrifice for long term gain."

No, I think you meant Return on Investment. But sure, same same.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by killbilly

What I really want to know is why major flying jobs require a college degree? I'd like a well-reasoned answer instead of "because it has always been this way."

*sigh*

GO TO COLLEGE - save America. The last thing we need is yet another high school diploma'd kid running around in a nation that's about to get economically cornholed by highly educated & rapidly developing Asia.

Next, for every 1 decent job, there are a crapload of highly qualified people applying for it.

You can't say, "I'm a cool guy that plays well with others!" on a resume because it's a numbers and credentials game. And if you don't match the credentials, you're not getting the interview.

[pilot602]

OK one last time ... IT IS A GAME. Play it. Or don't.

Just cut it ot with the high-horsed "debate" on whether it makes you a better pilot ... in the end who cares? Them thar be the rules, play by 'em or take your ball and go home.

[Doug Taylor]

Without a degree, FedEx is never going to find out how good of a pilot you are and how much fun people would have flying with you!

[Adam2006]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Such as?

Previously answered twice by the same person.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by SteveC

If I understand Griggs v Duke Power correctly, the Supreme Court ruled that Duke's pre-job-advancement requirements (intelligence tests and HS diploma) were not directly job related and ended up being discriminatory against blacks and, even if unintended, the discrimination made the employment requirement illegal because of the civil rights act.

It looks to me like there are two schools of thought on the ruling:

Either;
1. If an employment screening requirement is not directly related to job function it cannot cause discrimination of any type, otherwise it is prohibited, or;
2. An employment screening requirement must be directly job related or it is prohibited.

School of thought 2 is wrong. (And here follows more than you probably ever wanted to know)

What Griggs says is that if a facially neutral job selection criteria (i.e., required diploma, intelligence test, etc.) has a statistically signficant adverse impact upon members of a protected group (i.e., blacks, women), then the job selection criteria must be shown both to be (1) job related and consistent with business necessity and (2) narrowly tailored to acheive the legitimate business purpose.

So, for example, requiring an ATP is a facially neutral job selection criteria. The ATP requirement clearly has a statistically signficant adverse impact upon minority applicants. However, the requirement is indisputably job related and consistent with business necessity and narrowly tailored to acheive its purpose (the FAA requires it). Therefore, the requirement is legally acceptable.

In the case of airlines requiring a college degree (meaning that it is a go/no-go, not just one thing to be considered), the first step to challenging the requirement would be showing that the requirement has an adverse impact upon members of a protected group. In other words, looking solely at the universe of ATPs (the minimum qualification for a major airline position), would a college diploma requirement exclude one racial group in greater proporation than another? If not, if a college diploma requirement has no statistically signficant impact upon a protected group, then the employer does not need to defend it.

If there is an adverse impact, only then would the airline need to justify it. However, that probably wouldn't be that hard. The college degree requirement has been around for awhile, and the courts have proven themselves generally unwilling to second guess the airlines when it comes to hiring/firing decision involving pilots. The dirty little secret (well, not really a secret) about Griggs is that the employer's intelligence test and H.S. diploma requirements were implemented only after the passage of Title VII in order to keep blacks in "black" jobs (before Title VII, they could simply make those decisions based on race; after Title VII, Duke Power had to come up with another way to acheive the same result). The employer couldn't show that those requirements were necessary because those requirements hadn't been in place for very long. Today, nearly all employer require a H.S. diploma or equivalent, and I'm not aware of anyone challenging that requirement.

[crasher_2009]

Right out of H.S. I had my commercial license. NO one wanted me, even though I had 90 hrs of mullti. engine and 280 or so S.E., I talked to 2 different small "connector" airlines- mesaba, A. Eagle, and even my own flight school. Even though I had a lack of hours, they said if I got a degree they would re consider. I went back got my B.S. in professional flight, M.S. in aerospace sciences, and in my spare time over a couple years ago I did law school at night. Now I don't fly for airlines anymore, because I did end up with N.W. in the mesabas saab340 for a couple months, before I decided to quit, now I fly charter ranging from 20 passenger jets at the biggest, down to 5 select lear jets and a large number of turboprops for local companies. I might not fly for them anymore, but I sure remember even when I had first started to work on bachelors, I talked w/ my flight school who did charter, as soon as the cheif pilot said, I was making an efort to advance myself, I got hired.

[killbilly]

I appreciate everyone's insights. Thank you.

At present, I am considering my options as far as earning a degree before doing flight training - I know they can be done simultaneously, but there are cost factors and I will be working full time.

Thanks again, all.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

"That's just the way it is"........... just like Bruce Hornsby said.

And because it's just stupidity to not have a college degree.

I guess my Dad, Mom, both Brothers, Uncles, pretty much everyone in my family, besides me, is stupid, gosh how ever did they survive?

A degree is nothing more than a stack of resumes reducer. This idea that having a degree shows anything other than you can show up at a given time is almost laughable, I know, I've got two, and almost done with the third. It makes as much sense as requiring X amount of PIC time, or time in type, etc for a job. HR people are lazy and have zero interest in finding the best candidates, they are only interested in finding the best "paper" candidates.

Pilots should hire pilots, HR should stick to fixing my medical insurance problems...

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

No, I think you meant Return on Investment. But sure, same same.

See that? We're finding commonality here. . .slowly but surely.

[psalm91]

How do you guys think airlines / corporations would look at someone like who is very accomplished professionally (i.e. held Senior Management positions, and other positions of high responsibility) but is still trying to finish their degree? That is my situation, and I am half way through my Bachelor's and have a high GPA thus far, but still, I don't have a degree - do you think it would be as cut and dry as degree / no degree?

Just curious..

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by psalm91

How do you guys think airlines / corporations would look at someone like who is very accomplished professionally (i.e. held Senior Management positions, and other positions of high responsibility) but is still trying to finish their degree? That is my situation, and I am half way through my Bachelor's and have a high GPA thus far, but still, I don't have a degree - do you think it would be as cut and dry as degree / no degree?

Just curious..

What would I gather from it? Continuous improvement. It's all about the "whole person" perspective when dealing with leadership and management. No one wants an educated fool to work with/for, but intellectual insight goes a long way as well combined with the ability to lead and motivate people.

I would look at you, all thing being equal, as someone trying to become a better person, so therefore, it's favorable that you're attempting to receive your degree. . .senior management or not.

[MQAAord]

If a degree is a requirement for the position, and you do not have a degree (yet), you do not meet the qualifications. The HR department will not care if you are currently in school or what your background is, if you don't meet the min qualifications you don't meet the qualifications. If a degree is not a part of the qualifications, you will probably have some more leniency.

[lostplanetairman]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

Today, nearly all employer require a H.S. diploma or equivalent, and I'm not aware of anyone challenging that requirement.

Actually, we have rewritten all of our job descripitions. I see no need for a housekeeper to have a HS diploma. I see no need for a prep cook to have a high school diploma. On and on and on. How can one be a fair employer otherwise?

DH does not have a college degree. We're sorry, but there was a war and a draft at the time. The draft ended and he needed to do what kids do--experience life. He never went back to school after 3 1/2 years of college. He transitioned from the MD-80 to the Airbus last year. He was the first to catch on to everything--he now does training in it too. So, having a degree and being youthful isn't everything!

And actually, as an HR person, I look beyond the requirements--and delve into the background of the person before rejecting them outright. It's usually degree or equivalent experience that we look for.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by lostplanetairman

And actually, as an HR person, I look beyond the requirements--and delve into the background of the person before rejecting them outright. It's usually degree or equivalent experience that we look for.

Do you work in HR for a major airline hiring pilots? Not trying to sound bitchy, just a question.

[lostplanetairman]

I am a HR professional--what else matters? We are all trained to the same standards. We have professional certifications and exams, and required CEU's. I don't understand the question.

[MQAAord]

I think that a person's overall experience SHOULD be taken into account, and I'm glad that is how you evaluate your canidates.

It seems to me though, that when a pilot applies for a major airline position, if it's in the job requirements that a college degree is required, regardless of experience, if the applicant does not have that degree they are considered to not meet the requirements and therefore do not get an interview. Just as if 1000 PIC turbine is required, and an applicant does not have 1000 PIC turbine, they do not meet the qualifications and do not get the interview.

[lostplanetairman]

Well I'm glad my DH's employer looked at all qualifications. What a loss, had they been rigid. They would not have anyone to coach their younger, computer challenged, college educated pilots on how to fly the Airbus!

[B767Driver]

A college degree is not just filling in the square. It tells a lot about an individual and makes one a bit more of a known quantity.

A person with a college degree should be proficient in advanced educational principles such as reading, writing and arithmetic. It shows that the person has entered into a course of study and persevered to the point of completing it's stated objectives amongst the financial and intellectual challenges presented over at least a 4 year time frame. It subjects a person to other motivated and intelligent individuals from which one can learn from. Most quality institutions will motivate a student to perform to the best of their abilities and challenge all to the extent of their potential...and beyond...showing that even the most intelligent students have much to learn.

A college degree shows that a person knows how to learn, follow directions and reliably and accurately completes coursework. Basically, it displays to a potential employer that an individual has the aptitude to succeed in their organization.

In a nutshell...it quantifies an applicant. Makes the applicant more of a known quantity. An applicant without the degree...the HR department will have a difficult time assessing such characteristics in a short interview or hiring process.

This is why airlines traditionally shied away from civilian pilots for so long. Their training was typically conducted at FBOs and the quality of training was as varied as the flavors of Baskin Robbins ice cream. When commuters began to flourish...majors began hiring commuter captains. Why? They became a known quantity. They could pass a Part 121/125 checkride and meet all of the standards that the major airline required. This validated the experience and quality of training of the civilian pilot and many airlines began to hire such a profile. Military pilots never had such question marks. The training and qualification process was demanding, rigorous and quantified. When you hired a military pilot...you knew exactly what you were getting.

When you hire a person without a college degree...it doesn't mean you're getting a dummy...but someone with more question marks.

I know a guy who is a good friend and a good pilot and flies a jet for a national airline. He doesn't have a college degree. It didn't really show until one time I asked him to write a letter of recommedation for me. I couldn't use the letter because it was almost illiterate in a sense. Mispellings and grammatical errors were eggregious. An airline captain...should probably be able to write a letter in a literate fashion.

[lostplanetairman]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I know a guy who is a good friend and a good pilot and flies a jet for a national airline. He doesn't have a college degree. It didn't really show until one time I asked him to write a letter of recommedation for me. I couldn't use the letter because it was almost illiterate in a sence. Mispellings and grammatical errors were eggregious. An airline captain...should probably be able to write a letter in a literate fashion.

You would be surprised at the PhD level of applicants I get that cannot spell and have poor grammar!

[Dugie8]

On the issue of writing, grammar, and spelling. Please, these things have little or nothing to do with education or "smarts". Grammar is nothing more than syntax, a learned and practiced function. For someone who hasn't had to use it in many years it can be a fading skill. My Dad couldn't write a letter to save his life, but maintained ICBM silos in ND and was a Senior Master Sergeant when he retired after 30 years in the Air Force.

Those that defend these ridiculous requirements for job application only do so out of a misplaced sense of fear. It is the same old tired argument of "If you haven't gone through what I have gone through, then you are not worthy..." I draw a parallel of this thinking to hazing in a fraternity, nothing more than weiner swinging, chest thumping, I am more gooder than you attitudes.

Got to college and get a degree in something that truly interests you, not because you want to fill some square on an application.

At the same time, it is an airlines policy to play this game and you can either play by the rules or not, your choice. Complaining about is fine and makes for good discussion but that won't change the policies. If a paticular airline/company requires a degree use that as motivation to get one in something useful to you, don't focus on the negative of the situation. That being said, that doesn't mean you have to support the practice.