We were overtaking an MD80...

[gtpilot]

yesterday evening and watching the Delta flight heading into the teeth of a small thunderstorm. The Delta pilot requested a left (north) deviation to avoid weather so approach tells him 'Hold your course and we'll give you a right (south) deviation in a moment, we have lifeguard traffic for you to clear first. Descent and maintain FL260'.

The captain and I look at each other and say WTF? We're the lifeguard AND we're south of the MD80 at FL270. The north deviation the Delta flight requested would have put him slightly closer to Atlanta and more directly to Lagrange while the south deviation had to delay him a good 15 minutes. When ATC finally did clear him to turn, we could see the MD80 barely turning in time and brushing the edge of the T-storm.

Just thought that was strange. Of course, everything at altitude is new to me!

[Andrew_VT]

couldn't you have just told ATC you had the traffic in sight? As soon as they hear that they're allowed to do things they wouldnt otherwise do, like give up spacing requirements. Maybe its different with a lifeguard.

[jtrain609]

If they're dodging thunderstorms then I can't imagine they would have been able to stay visual for very long.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

couldn't you have just told ATC you had the traffic in sight? As soon as they hear that they're allowed to do things they wouldnt otherwise do, like give up spacing requirements. Maybe its different with a lifeguard.

Its also different at FL270. Visual sep can't be given above FL180.

[CARL0S]

Well, not sure if Im picturing this right. but, was the vector the gave the delta plane was like if ATC was aiming it to your direction?
This, I know is an old trick they use to seperate traffic, If you aim one airplane to the other one while you still have separation they will never hit each other.

[gtpilot]

Originally Posted by CARL0S

Well, not sure if Im picturing this right. but, was the vector the gave the delta plane was like if ATC was aiming it to your direction?
This, I know is an old trick they use to seperate traffic, If you aim one airplane to the other one while you still have separation they will never hit each other.

ATC had them descend before crossing them under us. Still plenty of separation but way out of the MD80's way.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I'd say that you were probably 40 miles from the radar site. Being more than 40 miles from the radar site in a Center environment requires 5 NM of lateral separation. If you're less than 40, it only requires the usual 3 that we're all acoustomed to.

[Fox Xray]

At the altitudes you posted the speration required should be 5 miles lateral and 1000' vertical. That said, as controllers we do not run everyone at minimums, I would guess you had at LEAST 8 miles or so lateral from the DAL MD80.

As for not getting the North deviation I can only specualte... reasons could include weather or a sector that is not taking traffic. As you know in bad weather things do not make much sense or go smoothly. This has been a BAD SUMMER so far... I can't ever remember seeing this many A/C hold as I have seen the past 2 months. Not just holding by also diverting. Have you guys been feeling the same way ???

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

At the altitudes you posted the speration required should be 5 miles lateral and 1000' vertical. That said, as controllers we do not run everyone at minimums, I would guess you had at LEAST 8 miles or so lateral from the DAL MD80.

As for not getting the North deviation I can only specualte... reasons could include weather or a sector that is not taking traffic. As you know in bad weather things do not make much sense or go smoothly. This has been a BAD SUMMER so far... I can't ever remember seeing this many A/C hold as I have seen the past 2 months. Not just holding by also diverting. Have you guys been feeling the same way ???

Yeah this summer seems especially "active". As usual though, ATC is doing a great job, for the most part, dealing with all the deviations.

[FlyChicaga]

This summer has been horrible weather wise. Take today in the NY area: Hour delay outbound from EWR for departure fixes opening and closing in minutes. Four hour delay back inbound to arrive at midnight, only to find departures still running up to three hour delays. The airport was packed. Then today, we showed up to find our entire flight schedule cancelled. So here we sit, wondering what is going on.

Summer is only half over...

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Hour delay outbound from EWR for departure fixes opening and closing in minutes.

What happens is a departure (or arrival) fix begins to get impacted by wx. Controllers notify supes who notify flow, etc, that we may loose said fix in X amount of time. Once deviations get bad enough or A/C are avoiding the fix altogether departures are stopped over said fix and swap routings take over. As the weather moves flow will begin to release one or two A/C to "test" the fix, to see if normal, or close to normal ops can resume. Often one or two A/C will get through then another becomes a huge problem and the fix is shut again, starting the whole process over. That is why you saw the opening and closing.

The centers have been getting pounded this summer and last night (Thursday) had the worst delays for the NY metros in 2006.