Airbus, Boeing clash over jumbo freighters

[falconvalley]

OOoooooooooooo- FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060721/...ing_freight_dc

By Tim Hepher and Bill Rigby 2 hours, 15 minutes ago


FARNBOROUGH (Reuters) - Forget about extra-wide seats and luxury frills, the battle is on to sell freight versions of the world's largest passenger planes to oil the wheels of globalization.
ADVERTISEMENT
document.write('');if (window.yzq_a == null) document.write("");if (window.yzq_a){yzq_a('p', 'P=P_nofESOwhVsaCgyRE42rA..RdtWPkTA8ZcAAdDh&T=197be2rsr%2fX%3d1153495447%2fE%3d7665819%2fR%3dn ews%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d1.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d25 78240671%2fH%3dY2FjaGVoaW50PSJuZXdzIiBjb250ZW50PSJ vaWw7aXQ7Z2l2ZTttYW47RmVkZXg7cmVmdXJsX3d3d195YWhvb 19jb20iIHJlZnVybD0icmVmdXJsX3d3d195YWhvb19jb20iIHR vcGljcz0icmVmdXJsX3d3d195YWhvb19jb20i%2fS%3d1%2fJ% 3d46C28E44');yzq_a('a', '&U=139in5mgb%2fN%3d5MmiAUSOxK8-%2fC%3d378772.7446053.8606856.1442997%2fD%3dLREC%2 fB%3d3207173');}
In this year's sweltering Farnborough air show, executives have been getting hot under the collar about claims and counter-claims from bitter rivals Airbus (EAD.PA) and Boeing.
Each accuses the other of misleading airlines about the hard economics of flying their jumbos in and out of the world's fastest-growing trade zones like China and India.
At stake is a global market for the largest air freighters that Boeing (NYSE:BA - news) estimates to be worth 340 aircraft or close to $100 billion at list prices over the next 20 years.
Boeing scored a victory this week with a 10-plane order worth almost $3 billion for its newest cargo aircraft, the 140-tonne freight version of the 747-8, a stretch with new wings and modern engines, from Dubai-based Emirates Airlines.
Airbus is redoubling efforts to sell its A380 triple-deck superfreighter -- replacing passengers with palettes on its twin passenger decks, with the plane's cargo belly making a third -- but is angry at what it calls a Boeing campaign to twist facts.
"The 747 is very emotional for Boeing. We are threatening their old monopoly and the idea of us potentially overtaking them on freight goes straight to the heart and guts of Boeing people," A380 marketing head Richard Carcaillet told Reuters.
At the Boeing chalet overlooking the display runway at this year's largest air show, Boeing's upbeat marketing supremo Randy Baseler believes he is already giving Airbus the benefit of the doubt in the way he runs the data -- and still beats the A380.
"Their plane weighs 74 tonnes more on their own figures. Our figures suggest 82 tonnes. We have a new wing design, but let's give them a slight advantage on the A380's wider wing. Our engine is four percent more efficient," Baseler told Reuters.
"A plane that weighs less, is about as aerodynamic and has a better engine is more efficient. They might choke saying it but they will probably admit we are more efficient."
Sitting inside the Airbus stand, Carcaillet is more fuming than choking but believes the unspoken rules of combat between the world's only large commercial airframers have been broken.
"This is something I have never seen in 15 years at Airbus. They are bending facts. I take Boeing numbers and assume they deliver. They assume our plane can hardly fly," he told Reuters.
Carcaillet says Boeing has exaggerated the weight of the future A380 freighter to make it look uncompetitive against the 747, around which much of the global freight market is built.
He also says the U.S. planemaker forgets the A380 can fly more than 1,000 nautical miles further. Rather than a cost-per-unit advantage of over 20 percent claimed by Boeing, Airbus claims the 747-8 has an 8 to 12 percent cost disadvantage.
EAST MEETS WEST
Emirates canceled two A380 freighters shortly before taking the Boeing order, converting them to A380 passenger versions of which it is the largest buyer. Boeing believes this merely proves that its own 747 is the real muscle man of the skies.
But the models are very close in orders so far. Boeing has sold 28 747-8F while Airbus has sold a net 25 A380-800F.

The 747 and A380 freight battle stands out as one of the most direct head-to-head battles between Airbus and Boeing, alongside fierce competition over single-aisle passenger jets.
While the passenger versions take aim at different segments
-- Boeing's carries 450 people and Airbus 555 in standard layout -- the freighters are closer with payloads of 140 to 150 tonnes, plus or minus a margin for their respective accuracy claims.
The demand for such freighters is effectively a tussle for East-West trade flows, spurred on by China's burgeoning exports.
Yet competition is also heating up for the regional and North-South markets served by smaller planes as Airbus prepares to launch a 65-tonne freight version of its A330-200 wide-body, and both firms eye returns from converting single-aisle jets.
Weight is not the only factor in this year's freight fracas.
Airbus says the roomy A380 is more suited to a shift toward less density in goods traffic. High-tech items tend to have more packaging and therefore weigh less for the volume used. Boeing counters that Airbus is blinded by its sale of A380 freighters to parcel firms Fedex (NYSE:FDX - news) and UPS (NYSE:UPS - news) who operate that way. At transition points like Anchorage, Boeing teams have been inspecting the goods being loaded on palettes and found average density is as high as before, Baseler said.

[SeanD]

Is there a shortage on aircraft to carry freight? I didnt know it was such a big deal.

[falconvalley]

I think it's partly a volume issue and possibly an aging a/c issue. If you could carry a million pounds of freight to china in one airplane, that was designed on a computer and has super efficient engines, versus two aircraft that were designed on a drawing board and have yesterday's really effiecient engines, you would be wanting the new airplane. Hence, the two giants having a cat-fight.

[mpenguin1]

Airbus probably read the Boeing blog which was titled, "Weight Watchers"


http://www.boeing.com/randy/

And no matter how you slice it, number one, the A380 weighs more than the 747-8. Using Airbus' own numbers (which we do in our comparisons), they are 74 tonnes heavier.

[frog_flyer]

i dont know what that says, but yall heard that (emirates i think?) cancelled their a380 order and replaced it with the 747-8. In your face europe!

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

i dont know what that says, but yall heard that (emirates i think?) cancelled their a380 order and replaced it with the 747-8. In your face europe!

Emirates did not cancel the order, they tranferred the same number of aircraft for the Pax version of the A380.....

[Callous]

Yes, why wait for tommorows technology when you can have yesterday's technology today?

[S40_flyer]

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Emirates did not cancel the order, they tranferred the same number of aircraft for the Pax version of the A380.....

No I read that too that Emirates cancelled their orders and went to Boeing the same day. it was something like $2.3 or $3.2 Billion deal. I dont remember which one lol.

Ill find the article...

[TrinidadGT20]

The 748F appears to be off to a good start and I'm glad the 747 will remain in the skies for years to come. The 748i on the other hand... Major disappointment today that SQ ordered more A380's rather than the 748i.

[awacs94]

I think its just two business using creative marketing to show that their product is better.

[boeing 777-300]

if im not mistaken Airbus had 0 orders for the A380 as of a few weeks ago.

[seagull]

No question that the 74 is better for certain types of cargo shipments. Problem is that the yield for that sort of ATA cargo is pretty low. Competition is belly freight on the pax airplanes on the one side and ships on the other. However, the 380 is the clear winner for the higher yield express type freight.

It would be interesting to look at the numbers. I wonder what percentage of total air cargo lift capacity, worldwide, is carried by FedEx and UPS? Seems to me that I saw those numbers before, and it was pretty impressive.