CAT Parked all Aircraft (Jet Univ now CRJ200)

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Now, it's sounding more fun! Turn off the weather radar, and make it all night flying - I'm in!

LOL

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

No believe me, I got that. The points in that thread were well taken.

I was merely trying to point out my situation as it stands now, since you were hinting at me going to JetU right now.

Cherokee_Cruiser I hope that you don't feel that your being jumped on. The subject is just very opinionated by many pilots on the board. I'd go further to say that you have a more liberal attitude toward flight training and have a history or asking the same questions over and over and expecting different results.

Take our opinions for what they are worth and make the best decsion possible for you and your situation. We just hope that you take the high road vs. the easy direct one!

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

C-Dawg,

when you get older you'll realize the journey is the reward


When you start hiring people that bought their way into their jobs, it reduces the unions ability to 'fight' management. You have people there that are just glad to be there, to be paid to fly an airplane. My company has a pretty militant pilot group, to the point where others including the once mighty Comair are taking pay freezes/cuts for promised growth we have turned down 3 consecutive offers from managment for pay cuts in return for 'growth'. The last one was a b-scale where first year pilots would be making $15.00/hr!

Now, what if my company had approved the wage cuts? Now all of a sudden we are hiring, maybe through another 'bridge program', and your $20k 'investment' just became worth <$15,000/yr. OUCH!

You should be thankful not everyone thinks like you do. For those that worked their way up, we are happy to have a job flying, but would tell the company #### if they asked for wage cuts. People like you, on the other hand, that bought their way in, are just happy to be here...disgusting.

Why would I ever be in favor of a B-scale ?!?! If management asks for concessions, they can go to he!!. I wouldn't accept any cuts just because I'd be happy to be there... that's ridiculous! Sorry, but you have to pay bills, rent, and then maybe in the future, have a family to feed.

Well at least you picked some mentors who are at the top of the aviation industry. I mean...why would you want to listen to guys who fly for UPS, Delta, Fedex etc.. when you have the advice of guys who are at the pinnacle of professional aviation.

I dunno, I just posted about the direct track and PACE programs under the "Regional" section of another large aviation forum, and I met my pilot mentors that way. Maybe if I'd posted it in the majors section as well?

Cherokee_Cruiser I hope that you don't feel that your being jumped on.

Nah, of course not! It's all good! We have healthy, constructive talks on this board, and I like that.

Not like flightinfo.com, where someone always puts, " Dude, 410 it, dude! " on every Pinnacle thread.

[Dugie8]

Cherokee,
There is one thing you have to really understand about pilots, ego, big ones. There is a short tradition, because it comes in cycles, of thinking that only 1000 hour CFIs or guys who fly freight, military pilots, etc, can only be good pilots. Now this JU, GIA, DCA, etc offer a way for people to train to be airline pilots, not perfect, but more focused on crew and 121 ops than something like UND, or your local FBO.

The bigest problem is the cost, ERAU CAPT program for example, almost 100K, that is way too much money, even for what you get, considering starting salaries/wages. So now you have some kids, with money, that have about 500 hours getting hired into the right seat of CRJs, Dash8s, etc for about 25K a year (roughly 25 bucks an hour, with a limit of 1000 hours a calender year) gross salary, to me that is even steven for pay and experience, keep in mind who negotiated those first year rates.

I have about 3000 hours, 2000 hours of multi turbine, almost 1000 of 4 engine heavy time, and some would still argue my time is too low to be an FO in a CRJ. I went to UND, and did the CFI thing for 3 years and then to Piedmont for a year. The crap I caught at Piedmont was unbelievable, when I got to ATI the guys there couldn't of been happier to have a regional guy onboard who can fly in weather, talk on the radio and pat my belly at the same time. Most of the guys at ATI have military backgrounds, very few are from the regionals or mainline world and don't have a bias against someone because of their career track.

My point, after all that rant, is simple. If you, as an individual, can pass the interview (even if it is guaranteed, the interview that is), can pass training and make it off IOE, then no one has any room to judge. If people are getting pass all three of those filters (more importantly the IOE portion) then something is wrong. It is not the JU, or DCAs of the world, it is the IOE Captains, instructors, and interviewers, that are not doing their jobs.

I would advise, however, that there are much cheaper ways to get to the airline world, and it will all happen in about the same amount of time (a year or two in the grand scheme of things is nothing). I started 3 years late, didn't have my private until I was 21, and everything is OOHHHH TAAAAY.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Dugie, great post!

Thanks.

[BrettInLJ]

I'm sorry but I just have to jump in on this forum. I have had enough close calls in the pattern at Arlington, students doing crazy things that I can't mention because they browse this site, and being put in situations that I would never get myself in if I were flying solo. Yet, I am very glad I was an instructor.

I have learned more in the past 350 hours than I did all the way through my certs and ratings. I can say that I am even a better pilot now than 2 months ago. Paying for these programs may make you competent RJ pilot, but what if you are ever in a situation that is completely outside of anything that you were ever trained for? Wouldn't you want to have some "outside the box" seat of your pants flying skills to fall back on? It may never happen to you of course but...

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

.....
I have about 3000 hours, 2000 hours of multi turbine, almost 1000 of 4 engine heavy time, and some would still argue my time is too low to be an FO in a CRJ.......

Come on, are you serious? Where are 'these' people? I doubt you would find anyone here that woud argue that.

p.s. I see you are out of KRST. Are you flying freight of some sort? I've been in there a couple of times. Nice airport.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by JEP

Come on, are you serious? Where are 'these' people? I doubt you would find anyone here that woud argue that.

p.s. I see you are out of KRST. Are you flying freight of some sort? I've been in there a couple of times. Nice airport.

I am completely serious, while I wouldn't say anyone here, maybe save one or two, would argue that, there are people out there that if you don't fit their mold, you aren't good enough, and all you here every time you fly with them is "My leg".

I live in KRST, but I am home based, so I either get a paid ticket to work, but lately I have been driving to MSP to ride in on the system. Little extra bling bling for my boom boom car.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

I'm sorry but I just have to jump in on this forum. I have had enough close calls in the pattern at Arlington, students doing crazy things that I can't mention because they browse this site, and being put in situations that I would never get myself in if I were flying solo. Yet, I am very glad I was an instructor.

I have learned more in the past 350 hours than I did all the way through my certs and ratings. I can say that I am even a better pilot now than 2 months ago. Paying for these programs may make you competent RJ pilot, but what if you are ever in a situation that is completely outside of anything that you were ever trained for? Wouldn't you want to have some "outside the box" seat of your pants flying skills to fall back on? It may never happen to you of course but...

You bring up a very good point. But I will argue this, I have never had an engine failur in a twin, other than in training for my Multi and MEI, and in the sim at two airlines for initial and recurrent. I am completely confident that when the day comes that the upwind engine goes to lunch, it will be nothing more than a slight pucker factor. Not because I have done it a lot, because of training. There is very little outside the box that has a good chance of happening in aviation. Sure there are not checklists for everything, but the chances of something happening that isn't somewhat addressed by a checklist is remote. And when that one event does happen, your bad of tricks is limited to the experiences you have had that are close to the event.

In the 121 world, not a whole lot needs to happen at the speed of light in an emergency, save a high dive, even in the dash, an engine quiets at V1, you fly the airplane to 1000 feet AGL and then "Identify the problem".

Nothing much in the way of funky has happened to me, a few hydraulic problems, electrical, a smore warning (we were empty), bad starts, etc. In all the cases it was a calm smooth operation, not this #######s and elbows, John Wayne instant action that only years of experience could ever hope to live through.

Now that isn't an excuse for someone who is not capable, ie someone who has been "walked" through training and IOE, to be in the seat. I had to do a single engine circling approach for my SIC checkride in the Dash, my sim partner had to do a single engine approach with no roll spoilers. Both tasks were above and beyond, we did fine. I did my type ride, with no prior jet experience, in the minimum sims and in an hour and a half with a fed. All because of good training at both airlines and at UND, I am no wonder pilot.

Again my war drum is if you can make it through the interview, honestly make it through training, and honestly make it off IOE, you are good to go, no matter your time. Each person is different and has different learning curves. The years of experience of course helps, but with some altitude and a little bit of common sense, the newbie can do just fine.

[kellwolf]

Sure, they can pass a checkride and ground school. They may even perform well for a check airman, but we all know everyone is on their best behavior on a checkride. What about the aeronautical know-how AFTER that? The checkride is a controled environment in a box that perfroms moderately similiar to the real thing. I'd even argue (and I'd have a couple of high seniority 9E check airmen to back me up) that some of these programs make the check airman's job HARDER. Some of the guys are passing IOE, but it's after it's been extended 3 times. I hate to bring it up, but the guys in the PCL crash both passed IOE and checkrides, one of them a CA checkride. That didn't mean they had the proper decision making skills, and it killed them.

Brian, there are PLENTY of other options out there than CFIing. I totally agree with you that not everyone is cut out to be a CFI, and those that aren't shouldn't be forced to do so. It's a disservice not only to themselves, but to their students. Tow banners (esp in FL), fly jumpers, ferry airplanes, safety pilot for instrument students, etc. All of those are legal ways to not only build time, but also build quality flight experience and decision making skills.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sure, they can pass a checkride and ground school. They may even perform well for a check airman, but we all know everyone is on their best behavior on a checkride. What about the aeronautical know-how AFTER that? The checkride is a controled environment in a box that perfroms moderately similiar to the real thing. I'd even argue (and I'd have a couple of high seniority 9E check airmen to back me up) that some of these programs make the check airman's job HARDER. Some of the guys are passing IOE, but it's after it's been extended 3 times. I hate to bring it up, but the guys in the PCL crash both passed IOE and checkrides, one of them a CA checkride. That didn't mean they had the proper decision making skills, and it killed them.

Brian, there are PLENTY of other options out there than CFIing. I totally agree with you that not everyone is cut out to be a CFI, and those that aren't shouldn't be forced to do so. It's a disservice not only to themselves, but to their students. Tow banners (esp in FL), fly jumpers, ferry airplanes, safety pilot for instrument students, etc. All of those are legal ways to not only build time, but also build quality flight experience and decision making skills.

You and I agree, you are making my point for me. IOE should not be extended three times. The PNCL crash, while I don't want to speak ill of the deceased, I believe the Capt had some checkride problems. Stuff happens, family, personal, etc, but repeated checkride failures says something. Decision making and good judgement cannot be taught, you have it or you don't. Efficient decision making is learned from experience, but lacking that won't kill you or anyone else.

I don't know about you, but I fly and act like every flight is a checkride, to standards, by the book and safe. Not trying to be a smartass, but every flight should be executed to the precision that the conditions allow, not just when a check airmen is sitting behind you.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I don't know about you, but I fly and act like every flight is a checkride, to standards, by the book and safe. Not trying to be a smartass, but every flight should be executed to the precision that the conditions allow, not just when a check airmen is sitting behind you.

While I attempt to fly every flight to the fullest of my abilities, I know I have some off days. If you can fly every flight to checkride standards, you're the first pilot I've met (well, maybe not MET) that can. I had to have my IOE extended a bit to get my approaches down, but it was well beat into my head that if I didn't get them down, I was done. Took me all of about two more flights to get it down, though. To have someone's IOE extended past 80 hours is a bit extreme, and it's happened.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

While I attempt to fly every flight to the fullest of my abilities, I know I have some off days. If you can fly every flight to checkride standards, you're the first pilot I've met (well, maybe not MET) that can. I had to have my IOE extended a bit to get my approaches down, but it was well beat into my head that if I didn't get them down, I was done. Took me all of about two more flights to get it down, though. To have someone's IOE extended past 80 hours is a bit extreme, and it's happened.

I think you may be confusing flying to perfect standards and flying to standards. Of course I have off days, I have had off days with a fed on board, with a check airmen on board, it happens. Extending IOE a few hours or legs to fine up some points, no problem, but 80 hours, yup that one probably didn't even do so well in the sim and shouldn't have been out on IOE, and then after X amount of hours shouldn't have been continuing IOE. That is the crutch of the problem. If you really want places like JU to go away permanently, start washing people out that deserve to be washed out. The word will get around real quick.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

Why would I ever be in favor of a B-scale ?!?! If management asks for concessions, they can go to he!!. I wouldn't accept any cuts just because I'd be happy to be there... that's ridiculous! Sorry, but you have to pay bills, rent, and then maybe in the future, have a family to feed.

I call BS.

You talk tough on here but you are a numbers guy. You will sit down and say "well I can upgrade in XX months faster, so it'll be worth $XXXX in the long run pay increase to take the paycut to get the growth".

You can't change that. You'll rationalize it out...the same way you rationalize paying $14k-$30k for an interview at low time because it'll get you to the airline that much quicker.

Sad.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I call BS.

You talk tough on here but you are a numbers guy. You will sit down and say "well I can upgrade in XX months faster, so it'll be worth $XXXX in the long run pay increase to take the paycut to get the growth".

You can't change that. You'll rationalize it out...the same way you rationalize paying $14k-$30k for an interview at low time because it'll get you to the airline that much quicker.

Sad.

Wheels

I gotta ask, of all the airlines that have voted in pay cuts, of those, how much, do you think, of the voting group was made up of 500 hour academy wonders?

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I call BS.

You talk tough on here but you are a numbers guy. You will sit down and say "well I can upgrade in XX months faster, so it'll be worth $XXXX in the long run pay increase to take the paycut to get the growth".

You can't change that. You'll rationalize it out...the same way you rationalize paying $14k-$30k for an interview at low time because it'll get you to the airline that much quicker.

Sad.

Numbers guy, yes I am. What can I say, I am an engineer.



But NO way would I ever entertain management's offer for a paycut or a B-scale wage for a promise of more growth or faster upgrades. They can take that carrot dangling and shove it up their a$$.
Look at Comair, and their concessions, in return for promises for growth. Management just screwed them. Bottom line is that no one should fall for management, promises for a faster upgrade, and all their carrot danglings. I certainly won't.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Wheels

I gotta ask, of all the airlines that have voted in pay cuts, of those, how much, do you think, of the voting group was made up of 500 hour academy wonders?

I see where you are going with this, but the truth is I don't think anyone really knows.

This guy is willing to pay $14k-$30k to go to the lowest paying regional carriers out there. How can you not see the correlation?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I see where you are going with this, but the truth is I don't think anyone really knows.

This guy is willing to pay $14k-$30k to go to the lowest paying regional carriers out there. How can you not see the correlation?

I don't know either, but I can muster an educated guess. There is plenty of blame to go around, not just at academy grads. While I understand the need to beat down on them, I think some of the anger is misplaced.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I see where you are going with this, but the truth is I don't think anyone really knows.

This guy is willing to pay $14k-$30k to go to the lowest paying regional carriers out there. How can you not see the correlation?

PACE would be about $11-$14k. If I don't do PACE, I will have to get all the CFI-I-MEI, which depending on how frequently I fly, can add up to $10k. Then throw in another few hours here and there to buy some multi time.


Bottom line is no matter what route you take, you will end up having spent THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS for flying by the time you make it to a regional.


No training is free (unless you go the military route)... everyone must pay for their private, instrument, commercial, multi engine, CFIs and/or Direct Track/PACE.

So regardless of whether I choose to do the CFI-I-MEI route or the PACE route, make no mistake: I will end up spending $11k-$14k *REGARDLESS*.

And all that for a "lowest paid regional."

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I don't know either, but I can muster an educated guess. There is plenty of blame to go around, not just at academy grads. While I understand the need to beat down on them, I think some of the anger is misplaced.

I agree; if they weren't taking the jobs than us CFI's would be. That being said, the "price of entry" would be considerably less.

I think the real problem people have with these guys is they pay lots of money to "cut in line" of everybody else, nevermind lack of experience (total time really doesn't mean much these days). If it was freshly minted CMEL people getting hired without having to pay $$ I wouldn't have a problem. The fact is, by paying these companies thousands of dollars for 'training', they are setting a precedent to the employers out there. A bad precedent IMO.

[Texasspilot]

a chance to fly 727's was the only thing this place had goin for it...oh well. I hope they close the doors and whoever else supports this crap gets thier well deserved swift kick to the nuts.