CAT Parked all Aircraft (Jet Univ now CRJ200)

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Shakes head. The point of that MAPD/PACE thread wasn't to get you to save up money to go to MAPD/PACE or FSA Direct track vs. getting loans. It was to tell you to not go their but instruct and build both skill and character vs. going the easy direct route.

Seems you have learned nothing!

No believe me, I got that. The points in that thread were well taken.

I was merely trying to point out my situation as it stands now, since you were hinting at me going to JetU right now.

[jtrain609]

If I had any say in this, guys that did these programs would be blacklisted by other pilots. Remember, they're the ones that interview you when you get to an airline.

This whole buying jobs thing is evidence of a very serious problem that our culture is facing these days. Instead of doing things the right way and earning respect we think that we can buy it. That's a load of crap, and I'm insulted by people that think they can buy the experience I'm building as a flight instructor, or others are building towing banners, throwing meat missles or doing aerial survey.

You can't buy what I've earned.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

If I had any say in this, guys that did these programs would be blacklisted by other pilots. Remember, they're the ones that interview you when you get to an airline.

This whole buying jobs thing is evidence of a very serious problem that our culture is facing these days. Instead of doing things the right way and earning respect we think that we can buy it. That's a load of crap, and I'm insulted by people that think they can buy the experience I'm building as a flight instructor, or others are building towing banners, throwing meat missles or doing aerial survey.

You can't buy what I've earned.

Here's a hypothetical.


One, an ATP Airline Career Transition student.

He goes in with 350 hours total time, and interviews with Pinnacle and gets hired, conditional upon completing the whole program. The program costs $25k or so.
He goes on to fly single/multi engine planes, and eventually, the CRJ sim... all before starting at Pinnacle with about 500 hours total.


Now consider you typical 900-1000 hour CFI.


What's the real difference between the two?

Does 400 more hours in the traffic pattern in a 152 really make or break it ?

I'd go even as far as saying that you as the CFI will be much behind the CRJ once you get on that jet, as opposed to the ALLTPS Airline Transition student.

Yes, more time means more experience. But just 400 hours more flying the traffic pattern in a 152 ?

The 350 hour, starting the airline transition program guy, who gets out with 500 hours when he starts with Pinnacle, will probably have an easier time in Pinnacle training than a CFI, no ?

I'd actually like to see the washout rate numbers of Direct Track / Airline Track students as opposed to 1000 hour CFI's of the streets.

FSA says they haven't had anyone wash out. Anyone have any numbers?

[jtrain609]

Check it out.

I don't care what you think.

I don't care what you think because you're not an aviation professional, you have no ground to speak from and as far as I'm concerned you're spouting off about a bunch of stuff that you have no real world experience with. Want to talk about engineering? Go for it! A discussion about how much I hate Big 10 sports? Sweet, we've got some common ground there. But for an engineer to tell a bunch of professional pilots that they're full of themselves and don't realize the potential of 350 hour wonders? Not a chance in heck I'm going to listen to you.

Because unlike you, I WAS a 350 hour wonder. Now I've got a little more experience than that and I realize "Hey! I didn't know crap!"

[kellwolf]

Oh jesus. We've been here hundreds of times before. Anyone that even THINKS that CFIing is just "flying the traffic pattern in a 152" has never done it. Period. End of story. You have no idea what you're talking about until you've done the job.

Personally, I think this program is going to do nothing more than tarnish our already damaged rep. Why? 'Cause the professional pilots for the most part look at this as buying your way in. I'm happy someone called JetU to follow up, but how about contacting someone OTHER than marketting at a program that's trying to sell a product?

Cherokee, you say aviation is a poor return on investment, yet you're still saving up for FSI or MAPD. You're still paying $25-30K for a low paying entry level job, you just avoid the interest.

For those that remember, I was HARD CORE on doing the PACE program. I decide to save some cash and get my CFI ratings and instruct to build hours. Took me a bit longer (maybe) to get where I am, but I wouldn't change a damn thing. I learned more instructing than I EVER did as a student. I don't owe near as much money, and I'm not married to Mesa, either. If things go south at Pinnacle, I have something a PACE grad doesn't....options.

As far as the 675 hours, I think that's a really low blow in the marketing dept. JetU makes it sound like you're paying for that with the program, but that's what you're getting paid to fly your first year as an FO.

And yes, our scope clause says that flights must be flown with pilots on the seniority list. I don't know anything about what's going on with the Pinnacle end of this agreement, but I'm gonna try to do some digging and find out.

[Champcar]

And blacklisting pilots cause of how they got there is professional?

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

But for an engineer to tell a bunch of professional pilots that they're full of themselves and don't realize the potential of 350 hour wonders

I have not told ANY professional pilot that they're full of it !


I only asked for who has an easier time in the training and keeping up with the aircraft, and for which group has the higher washout numbers.


You're right, I am an engineer. I am not a professional pilot (not yet at least).

But don't accuse me of telling others they're full of it. I dont think any professional pilot is full of it here.

Because unlike you, I WAS a 350 hour wonder. Now I've got a little more experience than that and I realize "Hey! I didn't know crap!"

Looks like you're learning and growing, so I admire you for that.


But you know, you kinda sound like a bitter guy who's been forced to follow a certain path to the regionals because he feels that is his only way to make it.



I have two pilot mentors right now. One at Mesa, and one at Eagle. The advice these two pilots have given me so far varies greatly by the advice given here on this website.
Both of them are encouraging support for PACE and the Direct Track at FSA. Both of these mentors said that if I wanna fly for a regional, then go for PACE or DT at FSA. (Their words, not mine)... they said the faster you build seniority, the faster you can advance onwards. The Mesa mentor is an ex-PACE student, and she was hired with just under 300 hours. The Eagle pilot was a student of the now defunct "Airline Training Academy" and he was hired at about 400 hours.
Both these pilots are successful. They are proud of where they came from, and how the program worked for them.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Does anyone know who the training is actually done with? The 727 training was done with SimCenter, the same for the PEA internship program. Need to see what PEA is doing about this as well.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Champcar

And blacklisting pilots cause of how they got there is professional?

Unless they're scabs?


But if you fly with a "jumpseat protection list" of all Direct Track program graduates, MPD/PACE graduates, Airline Training Academy (back when it existed), graduates of Gulfstream, and graduates of any airline training program that let them get hired with less than 500 hours, then something is wrong.

Take a good look at the F/O sitting next to you. There's a 40-50% chance you're gonna have to throw him/her off.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

For those that remember, I was HARD CORE on doing the PACE program. I decide to save some cash and get my CFI ratings and instruct to build hours. Took me a bit longer (maybe) to get where I am, but I wouldn't change a damn thing. I learned more instructing than I EVER did as a student. I don't owe near as much money, and I'm not married to Mesa, either. If things go south at Pinnacle, I have something a PACE grad doesn't....options.

Kellwolf, if you don't mind answering, why did you decide against PACE? I went back to briefly skim your many posts in the MAPD forum at that time, but it seemed that the main decidion factor was based on the future of Mesa Airlines, if US Airways tanked? Was that your only reason? You did seem pretty hard core about it, but then changed, so what were the big factors that came into play ? You even mentioned you had friends who had successfully gone through that program.

[kellwolf]

I didn't want to be tied to one airline. My best friend went through the PACE program and flew with Mesa for over a year. He said if he had it to do over again, he wouldn't. Thankfully, he's moved on to Skywest now.

I saved $1000s of dollars getting my CFI ratings. If I had gone to PACE, I would have spent more $$$ and had nothing but debt really to show for it. So what, I wind up with a higher seniority number? I still would only be making $20/hr to pay back those loans. I decided to save the money and take a little more time getting where I wanted to go, which really wasn't Mesa. I wanted to fly for an airline, but I wanted to fly for an airline that would fit for me. Going to PACE would be forcing myself to fit with Mesa instead of finding the job that was the best fit.

Like I said, I wouldn't really change a thing about how I did it. I learned tons more instructing than I ever thought I would. There were guys in my groundschool that did the ATP transition thing, there was even one guy that bought his own CRJ type rating. They still had to go through the same stuff us CFIs did. Wanna know who had the highest averages and the lowest washout rate? The CFIs. Sometimes when you learn how to teach others, you also learn how to teach yourself.

[BCTAv8r]

Teaching other people how to fly is a big responsibility. What if not everyone is meant to be a CFI? Should they not be professional pilots because they don't feel comfortable teaching?

(Not advocating going to the direct-track program btw)

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

Here's a hypothetical.


One, an ATP Airline Career Transition student.

He goes in with 350 hours total time, and interviews with Pinnacle and gets hired, conditional upon completing the whole program. The program costs $25k or so.
He goes on to fly single/multi engine planes, and eventually, the CRJ sim... all before starting at Pinnacle with about 500 hours total.


Now consider you typical 900-1000 hour CFI.


What's the real difference between the two?

Does 400 more hours in the traffic pattern in a 152 really make or break it ?

I'd go even as far as saying that you as the CFI will be much behind the CRJ once you get on that jet, as opposed to the ALLTPS Airline Transition student.

Yes, more time means more experience. But just 400 hours more flying the traffic pattern in a 152 ?

The 350 hour, starting the airline transition program guy, who gets out with 500 hours when he starts with Pinnacle, will probably have an easier time in Pinnacle training than a CFI, no ?

I'd actually like to see the washout rate numbers of Direct Track / Airline Track students as opposed to 1000 hour CFI's of the streets.

FSA says they haven't had anyone wash out. Anyone have any numbers?

Dude ultimately the decsion is yours. If your gonna go the traditional route then go the traditional route. If your gonna go the fast track route then go the fast track route. But dammit in my opinion just do something and stop rationalizing and coming on here and asking the same questions over and over and expecting different answers.

I'm only a lowly PPL rated pilot with all of maybe 150 hrs. tt. But I believe that going to places like MAPD/PACE,FSA or ATP's Direct track or JetU maybe be able to teach you to fly a CRJ to PTS standards under normal situations when everyting is going well and within the envelope. But what happens when things go awry?

Going to fast track programs like the ones mentioned is tantamount to teaching students how to pass a checkride vs. actually studying and learning the set of skills they'd need to complete said rating. I think that CFI-ing teaches patiences,common sense,judgement skills and good decsion making skills that these direct track programs can't. I used to want to attend one of those direct track programs. I used to buy into the whole thing about instructing being for losers.

As Flychicaga would say there is a huge difference between being a pilot and being an aviator.

Be an aviator.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Shakes head. The point of that MAPD/PACE thread wasn't to get you to save up money to go to MAPD/PACE or FSA Direct track vs. getting loans. It was to tell you to not go their but instruct and build both skill and character vs. going the easy direct route.

Seems you have learned nothing!

Cherokee Cruiser: There or more choices than College or Fast Track. There are a lot of part 61 schools that we give you quality training then allow you to instruct etc.

The easy route is what is help fuel the race to the bottom.

I have witnessed pilots that have gone through the fast track programs. They may be able to fly a perfectly sound airplane but god forbid they have do due something that there is no profile for.

[Texasspilot]

[quote=Cherokee_Cruiser]
I have two pilot mentors right now. One at Mesa, and one at Eagle. The advice these two pilots have given me so far varies greatly by the advice given here on this website.
QUOTE]

Well at least you picked some mentors who are at the top of the aviation industry. I mean...why would you want to listen to guys who fly for UPS, Delta, Fedex etc.. when you have the advice of guys who are at the pinnacle of professional aviation.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by BCTAv8r

Teaching other people how to fly is a big responsibility. What if not everyone is meant to be a CFI? Should they not be professional pilots because they don't feel comfortable teaching?

Ya Dugome right!!

Oh, did I say that outloud?

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

For those that remember, I was HARD CORE on doing the PACE program. I decide to save some cash and get my CFI ratings and instruct to build hours.

And, a good man you are for it!

[Seggy]

Seriously guys go to a program like Jet U or MAPD. When it comes time to upgrade you can't! Then you wil be stuck renting a 152 and flying it around for a couple hundred hours. That is what is happening at my company jumping me out of seniority when it comes to upgrade .

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Seriously guys go to a program like Jet U or MAPD. When it comes time to upgrade you can't! Then you wil be stuck renting a 152 and flying it around for a couple hundred hours. That is what is happening at my company jumping me out of seniority when it comes to upgrade .

I take it you are referring to the PIC requirement? What is it anyway 100hours PIC?
Thanks

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

I take it you are referring to the PIC requirement? What is it anyway 100hours PIC?
Thanks

Yep that is it! 250 hours of PIC required for an ATP. Our company doesn't have the waiver and I am 99.9% sure Pinnacle doesn't either.

[Airdale]

I am a huge anti-Jet U and any PFJ program. Its ridiculous. It sounds all great that you can go fly a shiney jet with these programs but its washing this career down the toilet. Thats the problem I have with it.

I don't care for ATP's direct track program, but I don't think its nearly as bad as some of the others. With the direct track its not PFJ or something like that. You're paying ATP for flight time, and Pinnacle or who ever is giving you an interview prior to starting and if they like you, you've got a job when your done building your time at ATP. Not really PFJ as I see it because your not paying Pinnacle to train you and you're not really getting much training with ATP aside from the RJ course, but I don't like the program still because rich momma's boy can skip being a CFI. Either way direct track graduates still have to go through new hire training when their done.

I think working as a CFI makes you a better pilot. You teach aviation to many different kinds of people. I've learned more in my first 100hrs of instruction then I did in 200hrs as a student. Its tough being an instructor, but I certainly feel my self being a better aviator every week of instructing.

[wheelsup]

C-Dawg,

when you get older you'll realize the journey is the reward


When you start hiring people that bought their way into their jobs, it reduces the unions ability to 'fight' management. You have people there that are just glad to be there, to be paid to fly an airplane. My company has a pretty militant pilot group, to the point where others including the once mighty Comair are taking pay freezes/cuts for promised growth we have turned down 3 consecutive offers from managment for pay cuts in return for 'growth'. The last one was a b-scale where first year pilots would be making $15.00/hr!

Now, what if my company had approved the wage cuts? Now all of a sudden we are hiring, maybe through another 'bridge program', and your $20k 'investment' just became worth <$15,000/yr. OUCH!

You should be thankful not everyone thinks like you do. For those that worked their way up, we are happy to have a job flying, but would tell the company #### if they asked for wage cuts. People like you, on the other hand, that bought their way in, are just happy to be here...disgusting.

[DE727UPS]

"The Mesa mentor is an ex-PACE student, and she was hired with just under 300 hours. The Eagle pilot was a student of the now defunct "Airline Training Academy" and he was hired at about 400 hours. Both these pilots are successful. They are proud of where they came from, and how the program worked for them"

A Gulfstream/Jet U guy is proud of where they came from, too.

Of course your mentors recommend direct track cause that's what they did and it worked for them. How many CFI/135 types (including me) understand the value of not being in a hurry, want to see more well rounded new airline F/O's, and don't recommend ab initio?

"Take a good look at the F/O sitting next to you. There's a 40-50% chance you're gonna have to throw him/her off"

Not really. I guess it depends on where you work as a Capt but I can tell you I've never flown with a UPS pilot who did ab initio. I've heard we have a Gulfstreamer but I've not had a chance to confirm it.


Thanks to those who are doing research on JetU beyond the website. It seems you only get a guaranteed interview (or two) and not so much buying a job, or a seat, or time in a seat, (like Gulfstream). The worst, in my view, is the practice of selling the F/O seat of an airliner to someone who wants to build time.

I don't like the idea of jet airline F/O's going straight from flight school to airline, it cuts out the seasoning process of working in the industry for a bit and the experience of building some flight time. What you are getting from ab initio programs, like this, is a bare minimum, FAA/airline approved standards, copilot, who will NOT be much of an asset to the Capt. All new F/O's are students, to some degree. Heck, I'm a Capt and I learn things from my F/O's....but to put such a low time guy in a jet is putting a huge burden on the Capt. In my view, an unfair, unsafe, and unnecessary burden.

If PCL is having such a hard time finding and retaining qualified F/O's, perhaps it would make more sense to raise the pay a bit.

Programs like this Jet U thing are certainly not helping to raise the bar in this industry. Last Flying magazine I saw a FULL page ad for both Gulfstream and Jet U. They make it seem so easy to buy your way into this career. I liked it better when you earned your way in...

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

....but to put such a low time guy in a jet is putting a huge burden on the Capt. In my view, an unfair, unsafe, and unnecessary burden.

More like single pilot IFR in an airliner.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

More like single pilot IFR in an airliner.

Now, it's sounding more fun! Turn off the weather radar, and make it all night flying - I'm in!