Who was taught this (crosswind technique)

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by FOD

If done correctly you should still have a little aileron in during rotation to help keep that upwind wing down. Once mains are off, I teach to transition from a slip to a crab for the climbout.

I agree.

You don't want to climb in the slip since it's inefficient, but you want to wait to transition from aileron into the wind until you are truly off the runway and won't touch down again.

That's all they are really saying. Most pilots who do it correctly will hardly notice sine the air time in the slip is so short.

Aeronautik, don't be "embarrassed" as you said in one of your posts. I'd almost bet you actually do it this way (unless you skip across the runway a bit just as you lift off) but just never thought of it this way. It's really just a further breakdown of the technique.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

40' X 2900" is unsafe?

I guess the fad of the week is to say silly things about freight dogs that make no sense . . .

When your landing gear is 25 feet from inside tire to inside tire, yup, and 2900 feet leaves about 1900 feet for actual landing distance, yup.

[eta71]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Im SOO sorry that my freaking x-wind experiance doesnt meet your standards. Man what a bunch of grumps.

Before Kristie gets you...
Experience

[eta71]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

40' X 2900" is unsafe?

I guess the fad of the week is to say silly things about freight dogs that make no sense . . .

Lloyd, you just think you are cool since you can call yourself a "freight dog" now.
From one kind of dog (devil) to another.
But then again, one never ceases being a Teufelhunde

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

You need to learn the wind low method, its alot more comfortable, and if you are going to make this a career it will benefit you I am sure.

Unfortunately it doesn't get very windy in Glendale too often, but the first opportunity that comes along when you have a 12 plus Xwind component drag your CFI out there and practice.

Just a suggestion.

Until you fly airplanes with wing slung engines, that are 18 inches off the ground....

[S40_flyer]

Originally Posted by seagull

Wow. And once again we manage to prove why airlines prefer military pilots that have standardized and correct training (even if the pilots don't always apply it, at least they were TAUGHT it!).

Wow. This thread so highlights the problems with GA training in the U.S. Lack of standardization, lack of knowledge (like the dingbat instructor using the "equal transit theory" or "newton is correct, bernoulli is not" for aerodynamics. It never ceases to amaze me.

You would not do what is correct because you weren't taught that? I would suggest you hire an instructor to LEARN the correct technique BEFORE your next flight!

I really dont think you should take one or two peoples experiences as a sign that GA training is bad. Im sure there are good and bad flight schools all over.

Im just glad I've known the correct method for x-wind takeoffs/landings.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by eta71

Lloyd, you just think you are cool since you can call yourself a "freight dog" now.
From one kind of dog (devil) to another.
But then again, one never ceases being a Teufelhunde

The Teufelhunde explanation listed above is somewhat incorrect. The highly-motivated US Marines did not receive this name in WWII as mentioned. Quite the contrary, it was during the vicious fighting in the Battle of Belleau Wood, France (1918) during WWI where the Devil Dogs earned this reputation/ moniker.

Sorry for the highjack......just needed to set the record straight. Now to return to our regularly scheduled crosswind programming.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Until you fly airplanes with wing slung engines, that are 18 inches off the ground....

And which mythical aircraft would this be? A crosswind landing is a crosswind landing, whether a Cessna 172 or a mythical airplane.

What the hell are you flying? B-58's? If thats the case, you are probably coming in at such an airspeed on Final that a crosswind correction is negligable at best anyways.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

And which mythical aircraft would this be? A crosswind landing is a crosswind landing, whether a Cessna 172 or a mythical airplane.

What the hell are you flying? B-58's? If thats the case, you are probably coming in at such an airspeed on Final that a crosswind correction is negligable at best anyways.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1036137/L/



a crosswind landing is not a crosswind landing, there is more than one way to do it.

[caliginousface]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Until you fly airplanes with wing slung engines, that are 18 inches off the ground....

I'm just wondering not calling you out or anything...so do you crab until just before touchdown, then oppisite rudder without dipping the wing?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by caliginousface

I'm just wondering not calling you out or anything...so do you crab until just before touchdown, then oppisite rudder without dipping the wing?

pretty much, the AFM says you have 5 degress of bank (with full strut extension) at 6 degrees of pitch (supposedley that is enough for a 30 knots of crosswind!). Its called a "kick out" and it works very well. You still touchdown on the upwind main first but the downwind main isn't that far off the ground and NEEDS to come down very quick, because as the struts compress you loose a lot of that clearance on the inboard engine. It is easier than it sounds, the transition from crab to slip is quick enough that the airplane stays tracking the centerline without having to drop the wing more than a couple of degrees before touchdown.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1036137/L/



a crosswind landing is not a crosswind landing, there is more than one way to do it.

18 inches??? C'mon man!!

Oh and by all means educate us on the proper crosswind technique for a DC-8.

As far as I know there are 2 ways to do a crosswind landing, and one works better than the other in a small GA aircraft in high winds.

Go ahead and educate me though, hell I may learn something, I am never opposed to that.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

pretty much, the AFM says you have 5 degress of bank (with full strut extension) at 6 degrees of pitch (supposedley that is enough for a 30 knots of crosswind!). Its called a "kick out" and it works very well. You still touchdown on the upwind main first but the downwind main isn't that far off the ground and NEEDS to come down very quick, because as the struts compress you loose a lot of that clearance on the inboard engine. It is easier than it sounds, the transition from crab to slip is quick enough that the airplane stays tracking the centerline without having to drop the wing more than a couple of degrees before touchdown.

Sounds like a wing low to me.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

18 inches??? C'mon man!!

Just looked up the exact number (empty airplane) inboard pods on a -7X series (the link is a -73 series) 23.5 inches from the bottom of the pod to the ground.

Oh and by all means educate us on the proper crosswind technique for a DC-8.

See above

As far as I know there are 2 ways to do a crosswind landing, and one works better than the other in a small GA aircraft in high winds.

Read a book, you might find some interesting info in there, not just JC self proclaimed expert testimony.

Go ahead and educate me though, hell I may learn something, I am never opposed to that.

educated...

[Dugie8]

stupid double posts...

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

You still touchdown on the upwind main first but the downwind main isn't that far off the ground and NEEDS to come down very quick, because as the struts compress you loose a lot of that clearance on the inboard engine. It is easier than it sounds, the transition from crab to slip is quick enough that the airplane stays tracking the centerline without having to drop the wing more than a couple of degrees before touchdown.

Again, I say, that sounds an awful lot like a wing low to me. Dip the upwind wing, so as to not side load the gear, then the downwind gear, then the nose gear.

Originally Posted by dugie8

Just looked up the exact number (empty airplane) inboard pods on a -7X series (the link is a -73 series) 23.5 inches from the bottom of the pod to the ground.

Which allows for 5-6 degrees of bank. I looked it up also.

Originally Posted by dugie8

Read a book, you might find some interesting info in there, not just JC self proclaimed expert testimony.

Where do you think I got he information in the first place? Made it up? I have seen plenty of articles and publications say exactly as I stated above. 2 ways to do a crosswind landing. Crab or Wind Low. I never heard of a Kick Out, which apparently is a super secret Heavy pilot technique that isn't in any of the publications I have read. Oh, which by the way sounds just like a wing low landing to me.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Again, I say, that sounds an awful lot like a wing low to me. Dip the upwind wing, so as to not side load the gear, then the downwind gear, then the nose gear.

Only in real heavy winds (32 knots is the limit), even then you end up with a bit of a sideways landing, believe it or not, most people drag the outboard engine since it is behind the gear (just barely) and gets put closer to the ground as you pitch up, opposite for the inboard, but when the nose starts coming down, if you still have some bank in there, wammo.



Which allows for 5-6 degrees of bank. I looked it up also.


Where do you think I got he information in the first place? Made it up? I have seen plenty of articles and publications say exactly as I stated above. 2 ways to do a crosswind landing. Crab or Wind Low. I never heard of a Kick Out, which apparently is a super secret Heavy pilot technique that isn't in any of the publications I have read. Oh, which by the way sounds just like a wing low landing to me.
I believe it is mentioned in the turbine pilots handbook (manual?) I don't have mine anymore, ceremonial burning and all.

I keep forgetting to put my smileys in my posts, not busting your balls, just pointing out there is more than one way to do things, and a lot of things in aviation are not absolute so be flexible.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I keep forgetting to put my smileys in my posts, not busting your balls, just pointing out there is more than one way to do things, and a lot of things in aviation are not absolute so be flexible.

I get what you are saying.

Every plane flies different of course. The same technique for a C172 varies a bit from a PA-28.

The principle remains the same though whether you are full control deflection in a C172 in 15 kt direct or slight deflection in the DC-8 the key is not to sideload and collapse the gear while skipping across the runway. Also knowing the capabilities and limitations of your aircraft is essential.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

I get what you are saying.

Every plane flies different of course. The same technique for a C172 varies a bit from a PA-28.

The principle remains the same though whether you are full control deflection in a C172 in 15 kt direct or slight deflection in the DC-8 the key is not to sideload and collapse the gear while skipping across the runway. Also knowing the capabilities and limitations of your aircraft is essential.

That is it exactly! Primary training should not be an absolute, it should be the basics, a general way to fly if you will. More specific training can come from transition, upgrade, etc training.

To the original topic. My first real windy crosswind takeoff in the DC8 was an eye opener. I did the aileron into the wind thing and as Im rolling down the runway Im bleeding it out, come to rotation and as I rotate I let out the ailerons to transition to the crab and we banked so hard to the downwind side I thought the wing had fallen off! Mind set is everyting. Slipping for a while until you are clear of the ground is okay when you got 4 big motors to drive you through the sky!

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

That is it exactly! Primary training should not be an absolute, it should be the basics, a general way to fly if you will. More specific training can come from transition, upgrade, etc training.

To the original topic. My first real windy crosswind takeoff in the DC8 was an eye opener. I did the aileron into the wind thing and as Im rolling down the runway Im bleeding it out, come to rotation and as I rotate I let out the ailerons to transition to the crab and we banked so hard to the downwind side I thought the wing had fallen off! Mind set is everyting. Slipping for a while until you are clear of the ground is okay when you got 4 big motors to drive you through the sky!

I apologize if my general statement sounded like an absolute at first. However it does remain the same, its time for dude to grab his instructor and practice them.

[seagull]

A couple of points here.

1. I am well aware that there are some excellent civilian trained pilots, and that there are many good schools, including part 61 schools. However, I am not making my judgement on just these issues. I have seen many, many misconceptions get passed down on the civilian side, and that just doesn't happen in the military training. The problem on the civlian side is you have some dingbat instructor who said some weird thing back in the 40s and it keeps getting passed down. You don't have places like TPS or Pax river to be constantly really analyzing the stuff and then having it get back to the training commands. There is just no similar thing in the civilian world. Consequently, you even have airlines (sometimes (though more rarely) even majors!) that are giving out bad info.

2. The DC-8 can be landed up to it's max demonstrated (and probably beyond) using the standard "side slip" (or "wing low") method of x-wind landings, although there is a persistent myth that the "kick out" method is better. In actual fact, the accident rate for that late correction turns out to be higher for several reasons, and the manufacturer does not recommend transitioning to wing low in the flare, at least not last time I looked in the FCOM. This is another example of item 1, incidentally, as are the myths surrounding "unloading" before touchdown and why it works (or doesn't).

3. Swept wing airplanes require a LOT more crosswind correction inputs on takeoff and landing due to the much higher dihedral effect. Training SHOULD address this BEFORE that first takeoff, it seems to me!

[ColMustard]

Military training has the luxury of letting go anyone that doesn't make the grade. This hopefully leaves only the best and most qualified pilots. (as it should be).

On the civilian side you have to run a business, and that includes keeping your clients flying. Thats not to say I lower my standards when training my students, but there are a few I would like to "washout" because of the lack of effort on their part.

I wish I could've flown for the military (have a lot of friends who do). Its a great career path, top notch training, and awesome co-workers. I just hope that the military pilots transitioning to the civilian side don't bring a "holier than thou" attitude (that goes for GA pilots too) to the cockpit.

K, getting off my soapbox now
-ColM

[seagull]

You are correct about military training (and, for the record, I am NOT military trained!), however, my point is not that people are kept on as students when they have less ability (which is another valid reason airlines prefer military), but rather, that misconceptions are passed down from generation to generation in the civilian ranks. Even FAA seems to pass some of these down, and the problem is actually fairly significant at the local level (which is why you should NEVER take the word of the local FSDO on an FAA legal interp, as even FAA gives no credence to them!).

[eta71]

Originally Posted by Cruise

The Teufelhunde explanation listed above is somewhat incorrect. The highly-motivated US Marines did not receive this name in WWII as mentioned. Quite the contrary, it was during the vicious fighting in the Battle of Belleau Wood, France (1918) during WWI where the Devil Dogs earned this reputation/ moniker.

Sorry for the highjack......just needed to set the record straight. Now to return to our regularly scheduled crosswind programming.

Hijack
I should have read the page I sited. I know the history. It was more to humor Lloyd. Here's a better one, not the best though...
Teuflehunde
Please continue on final for 25L, winds 160 @ 14, gusts of 24

[Dugie8]

Im doing it again, arguing on the internet.... bad dugie, bad bad.