How DARE they strike!

[gurisudenko]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingTurkey

Why do you read this crap? I never would have found that on my own.

I was researching airline pilot lifestyle and that's one of the articles that came up. I usually read more than I should when researching. Yeah I know, it's crap.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Which goes back to my "the market dictates who makes exorbitant amounts of money".

I wouldn't say the market is everything there. Don't forget, there's a very powerful union associated with baseball and a lot of labor strife was involved in getting things to this point.

By the way, even A-Rod says he's overpaid. He kind of turned it around on Peter Gammons by saying, yes, I am, but Peter, if they gave you 25 million a year to do your job, would you take it?

And Gammons was honest and said yes.

[nwa757]

a real expert..... backing up his editorial with his name and all.

[grassrootsflying]

Originally Posted by UH60driver

The education of professional pilots is as intense as a doctor's or a lawyer's education. A professional pilot never stops learning, studying, and training. It is not just any dork flying a multi-million dollar aircraft; it is not just any fool trusted with the lives of other humans in the air; it is not just any idiot taking the responsibility of making decisions which could affect the lives of many. It is an an individual who, in addition to his college years achieving a separate degree, has dedicated years of his life to get to where he/she is. It is a person who possesses the intelligence necessary to observe every bit of a complex environment and manage it, making it a seemingly simple process.

It's not any dork that can be a pro pilot, but it seems like some people underestimate doctors and the amount of their training. There are no bad US medical schools. In my experience, you can take an average person and with enough training and experience, they can become an average pilot.

But there is no average person who could become a doctor, no amount of training or experience can get someone into, then through a medical education. An average person will flunk out. Doctor's pay also involves limiting the number of medical schools to keep supply down, a powerful central organization, but my point is that supply of doctors is low in part because of the education required, and education is far more intense than a pilot's education. The amount of knowledge a doctor has to learn in their education cannot even be compared to the amount of knowledge a pilot has to learn in their education.

I did most of my pilot training while in college, I guarantee you, no person on earth could go through medical school while a full time student even if they wanted do. You can go start your flying career from scratch and in a few years be in a regional. To go through medical school requires 2 years related undergrad, 4 years medical school, and a residency of many years working 36 hour shifts. Want to go to any flight academy? Just pay them. Want to go to any medical school? Most pre-meds don't make it. Some pilots get an online degree and call it a 4 year degree. If you go to a community college, you can forget about getting into med school unless you developed the cure for cancer. Still think a pilot education can compare to doctor's education?

Supply of people who want to fly is high. Supply of people who can become doctors is low. An average person can become a pilot, the average person cannot become a doctor. When comparing pilots and doctors, I hope that this doctor forum will show you something. Check out this website and see what kind of education is required to be a doctor.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php

[DE727UPS]

I once trained a doctor in Seattle for his IFR rating in my 172. He said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. Guess he didn't mean it....

[grassrootsflying]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I once trained a doctor in Seattle for his IFR rating in my 172. He said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. Guess he didn't mean it....

Addressing your comment, I find it hard to believe that an investment of about 30-60 hours for a leisure activity is harder than 6-9 years of cramming and 36 hour shifts for work with intense competition. Although getting your ego stroked always makes you believe other's words "You're the [best, fastest, strongest, smartest, etc]. "

You missed my point completely. "The education of professional pilots is as intense as a doctor's...education". It's not even close.

But who knows, for him it may have been the hardest thing he had ever done. People are people, you find jerks and geniuses in every field. But I firmly believe that the average doctor has a far more difficult education than the average pilot, and that's the only point I am trying to make. Yes it is correct, if you don't believe me, reread my above post and follow the link.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I used to get all worked up about stuff like this.

But I've learned one thing in the last 12 or so years of professional aviation:

The most scathingly opinionated people that opine how pilots are overpaid are usually screaming like little girls in the back of the airplane during emergencies and think you're the second coming of Jesus once you land safely.

"Crow" tastes good when served hot off the grill.

EXACTLY DOUG.....

reading through the posts down to yours I was just thinking, someone should invite the author up into the pit on final approach with heavy rain or snow, turbulence, and zero visibility AND GIVE THEM THE CONTROLS....

Then ask them who is over paid with "no scruples, heart, or even common decency!".


ILS

[Doug Taylor]

True story:

I had the vice president of corporate security on the jumpseat once with authorization from the chief pilot. Well, it wasn't MY jumpseat, but it was the captain's.

The flight was full from DC to ATL so he got authorization from the head cheese to ride the jumpseat and then asked us for our permission to occupy it on the flight to Hooterville.

Pretty nice guy. Tough, had a law enforcement background, I think he was either former FBI or former armed forces, I can't remember, but during the boarding process, he told us a story or two and it seems like he'd be the type of guy that would run opposite direction of people trying to escape something. You know, the tough, selfless hero type. The kind of guy that'd make a good fireman or green beret.

But he was 'management' and lightly flavored conversation with it.

So we eventually push back, take off north have an uneventful flight and shoot the visual into ATL.

We land and taxi into the gate and it was almost if the guy hadn't breathed for the past 90 minutes.

"OH MY GOD THAT WAS THE MOST EXCITING THING EVER! I thought you guys just pushed buttons and we'd all complain about how much money you guys made, but OH MY GOD you guys deserve every bit if not more. Do you guys ever get scared? how much is it for a private..."

And on and on and on.

The author of the editorial probably thinks he's a tough guy and how the entire world is overpaid, but he's paid 'just right', but when elbows hit the table, the general public HAS NO CLUE unless you educate them.

Life is full of irony. The author will have an epiphany one day, hopefully not too serious.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

True story:

I had the vice president of corporate security on the jumpseat once with authorization from the chief pilot. Well, it wasn't MY jumpseat, but it was the captain's.

The flight was full from DC to ATL so he got authorization from the head cheese to ride the jumpseat and then asked us for our permission to occupy it on the flight to Hooterville.

Pretty nice guy. Tough, had a law enforcement background, I think he was either former FBI or former armed forces, I can't remember, but during the boarding process, he told us a story or two and it seems like he'd be the type of guy that would run opposite direction of people trying to escape something. You know, the tough, selfless hero type. The kind of guy that'd make a good fireman or green beret.

But he was 'management' and lightly flavored conversation with it.

So we eventually push back, take off north have an uneventful flight and shoot the visual into ATL.

We land and taxi into the gate and it was almost if the guy hadn't breathed for the past 90 minutes.

"OH MY GOD THAT WAS THE MOST EXCITING THING EVER! I thought you guys just pushed buttons and we'd all complain about how much money you guys made, but OH MY GOD you guys deserve every bit if not more. Do you guys ever get scared? how much is it for a private..."

And on and on and on.

The author of the editorial probably thinks he's a tough guy and how the entire world is overpaid, but he's paid 'just right', but when elbows hit the table, the general public HAS NO CLUE unless you educate them.

Life is full of irony. The author will have an epiphany one day, hopefully not too serious.

Very true indeed....

I flew my brother from Seattle down to Portland in the Seminole. Broke out at about 1000', nothing major. All he had to say was.... "much respect" after we landed. I had to tell him to release his death grip from the door handle so we could exit the aircraft.

and that was in the Seminole...

Funny how people have an overwhelming respect for pilots AFTER they experience flight from the front seats...

ILS

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by grassrootsflying

Addressing your comment, I find it hard to believe that an investment of about 30-60 hours for a leisure activity is harder than 6-9 years of cramming and 36 hour shifts for work with intense competition. Although getting your ego stroked always makes you believe other's words "You're the [best, fastest, strongest, smartest, etc]. "

I want to reply with a really nasty reply about how the national failure rate for CFI cadidates is something like 90% and how I spent a lot longer than 30-60 hours training for something that I consider much more complex than a "leisure activity," and I've only got through my flight instructor ratings.

Those that haven't gotten that far seem to complain the most about how pilots only deserve what the market will provide them. I have NO idea what level of training you're at, or whether you're working as a professional pilot right now. I don't really care to be honest. This is more than a leisure activity for some people.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I once trained a doctor in Seattle for his IFR rating in my 172. He said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. Guess he didn't mean it....

I'm probably going to regret saying this but...

I guess what we can really take from this is that some things are more difficult for some than others. My guess is that if we (professional pilots) embarked on a medical school education we might view it as the hardest thing we have ever done. In fact I know of one ex regional pilot (furloughed) who is in medical school right now. It would be interesting to hear his view on the topic.

I was once a roomate of a medical student friend for his first two years of medical school before heading off to flight school. No comparison to the two types of education. That being said, I also come from a family of 4 doctors of different varieties and to compare the amount of education that I have had to undertake to become a regional pilot to that of my brother in law who is an anesthesiologist is laughable. If you think we are over worked, underpaid, and never get to see our families then try living his life especially when he was chief resident at a top hospital making around $30k for 4 years. Not to mention the hours.

[grassrootsflying]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

I want to reply with a really nasty reply about how the national failure rate for CFI cadidates is something like 90% and how I spent a lot longer than 30-60 hours training for something that I consider much more complex than a "leisure activity," and I've only got through my flight instructor ratings.

Those that haven't gotten that far seem to complain the most about how pilots only deserve what the market will provide them. I have NO idea what level of training you're at, or whether you're working as a professional pilot right now. I don't really care to be honest. This is more than a leisure activity for some people.

Your feelings are very sincere. I started flying as a leisure activity with the idea that I could make a living at this, so I did. If someone doesn't enjoy flying at some point in their training, I wouldn't know why they would choose to do it. The point of the above example with the doctor getting his IFR as a leisure activity was to show that 30-60 hours flying for an IFR is NOT harder than getting into, then going through a medical education, which DE727UPS suggested was.

I don't mean to demean the hard work that anyone has put into their careers because it is hard. I only want to debunk the argument that "doctors and pilots put equal amounts of work into their education so they deserve equal salaries" . Education =/= salary. Doctor education=/= pilot education. I agree that pilots deserve more money, but that's not how the world works. Many people deserve lots of things that they never get.

To stay on message, I am saying is that the education required of a doctor is much more than the education of a pilot, I am not saying anything else. To compare the education and knowledge base of the average pilot to average doctor is not even close. A better comparision would be to say that a pro pilot needs to have a master's in aero.engineering, meteorology, and a bS in physics in addition to all their flight training to have a comparable amount of education to a doctor.

My point and my ONLY point is that "don't use the argument that pilots deserve equal pay to doctors because they have equal amounts of education" because this argument is wrong. Check out the studentdoctor.net forum and you will see how much goes into a medical degree, then compare it to how many years it takes to train as a pilot, and see if "doctors and pilots have equally rigorous educations". You don't know what you don't know. I know enough doctors to have an opinion. Take a look through the doctor forum and you will learn something about what doctors go through.

[Cav]

Just for the record, my response comparing medical education to flight training mentioned nothing of salary...that's a whole different can of worms.

[tonyw]

Cav, keep in mind that after that residency, depending on your specialty, you can do a hell of a lot better. My sister right now is working pretty much six or seven hours a day, and making out nicely. Her opinion on the difficulty of med school is that it wasn't too hard, but then she had just finished her undergrad at MIT so that probably skewed things a wee bit.

I think the residency is comparable to the CFI stage of a professional pilot. When you break down the hours spent working versus your total comp, you'd be better off flipping burgers but it's something you've got to go through in order to get where you want.

Who says we don't have the apprentice system in America any more?

[Cav]

Originally Posted by tonyw

Cav, keep in mind that after that residency, depending on your specialty, you can do a hell of a lot better. My sister right now is working pretty much six or seven hours a day, and making out nicely. Her opinion on the difficulty of med school is that it wasn't too hard, but then she had just finished her undergrad at MIT so that probably skewed things a wee bit.

I think the residency is comparable to the CFI stage of a professional pilot. When you break down the hours spent working versus your total comp, you'd be better off flipping burgers but it's something you've got to go through in order to get where you want.

Who says we don't have the apprentice system in America any more?

Good assessment tonyw although I would add that the CFI stage is generally much shorter than that of a residents atleast it was for me anyway. The unfortunate thing for pilots, when compared to medicine, is that the payoff once you finish the "training" stage is so low and now the end payoff is not much higher. The medical profession has always had large barriers to entry to their credit, unfortunately those for becoming a professional pilot are much lower. Most airlines don't even require a college degree even Continental, Southwest, and FedEx to name a few.

[MDPilot]

From their websites:

FedEx - Bachelor's degree required
Continental - Bachelor's degree preferred
Southwest - Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred.

[grassrootsflying]

2nd tonyw/cav's posts. I never wrote or even suggested, that being a pro pilot was easy, or that they don't deserve high pay. I never wrote a bad word about pilots, only good words about doctors, yet some replied with a nasty tone. I did write that doctors go through much more schooling than pilots, and endure more, and have much higher barriers to entry, all of which are true. education=/=salary=/=deserving
People on this board complain how the public doesn't understand what pilots have to go through, it's because the public is just ignorant. I am not a doctor, but know enough to say that people who compare a doctor's education to a pilot's education are showing ignorance themselves.

And to people who think that they are somehow special, "You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake". Nothing wrong with being average, by definition, most people are average, it just means that you are not the rare gift to flying that some pilots think they are. What's among the first things you say to or heard as a prospective student-if you can drive a car, you can fly an airplane. These are average people who are trained to a professional standard regardless of their motivation for flying-career or pleasure. And that's why I think average pilots come from average people, and not some superpeopleland that I apparently have been excluded from.