How DARE they strike!

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Any Joe can become a pilot. Not so for professional athlete. And as long as people are willing to pay that much for professional athletes, they'll continue to get paid that high.

Funny how many people hate free market capitalism on this site.

BAM!!! And to think I liked you just because you are an #########.

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Originally Posted by gurisudenko

http://www.abp1.com/freedomofspeech/.../p_strike.html

WOW...

Why do you read this crap? I never would have found that on my own.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Any Joe can become a pilot. Not so for professional athlete. And as long as people are willing to pay that much for professional athletes, they'll continue to get paid that high.

Funny how many people hate free market capitalism on this site.

Gonna call BS on that one. Most people can't hack being a professional pilot. Either you've got a lot of amazing students at your school or you're delusional about what it takes to be a professional pilot.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

Gonna call BS on that one. Most people can't hack being a professional pilot. Either you've got a lot of amazing students at your school or you're delusional about what it takes to be a professional pilot.

Okay.

MLB: 30 teams, 25 players to a roster: 750
NBA: ~30 teams, ~12 players to a roster: 360
NFL: 32 teams, 60 players to a roster: 1920
NHL: ~28 teams, ~25 players to a roster: 700

3730 professional athletes. And the number that make more than $5M is probably around 6-8% of that number.

ALPA alone represents 62,000 pilots.

Originally Posted by alpa

The Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) is the largest airline pilot union in the world and represents 62,000 pilots who fly for 39 U.S. and Canadian airlines.

"Most people" might not be able to hack as a pilot, but even less can make it to professional athlete.

[Doug Taylor]

I've already been accused of running a communist website by another user a few years ago, you're going to have to swing a little harder to surprise me.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I've already been accused of running a communist website by another user a few years ago, you're going to have to swing a little harder to surprise me.

Not calling you a communist, but I just think it's funny when individuals cry out "it's not fair they get paid X" when in fact, it's just how the market works. Life != fair. Pretty girls get all the free drinks and the dates with the QB of the football team, that's life, you have to play the cards you're dealt.

[Doug Taylor]

I don't remember a collective on the website determining anything like that.

We're professional pilots, Chris. We discuss things AS professional pilots. Yes, I too had a lot of pie-in-the-sky/"book learnin'" ideas about stuff but they went out the window when I saw the realities of the profession from the inside.

I crap you not, if you go off on the captain about how a 18 hour duty day is a product of a free market economy, he's probably going to knock one of your teeth out.

Or she.

If people are questioning viewpoints like the author, I applaud that, especially as a professional.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I don't remember a collective on the website determining anything like that.

We're professional pilots, Chris. We discuss things AS professional pilots. Yes, I too had a lot of pie-in-the-sky/"book learnin'" ideas about stuff but they went out the window when I saw the realities of the profession from the inside.

I crap you not, if you go off on the captain about how a 18 hour duty day is a product of a free market economy, he's probably going to knock one of your teeth out.

Or she.

If people are questioning viewpoints like the author, I applaud that, especially as a professional.

Doug, I don't think Chris or anybody else disagrees with you, we are not saying that it is RIGHT, we are simply saying it is REALITY. Hot chicks get free drinks, rich guys get the girls, and nobody buys $5000.00 season tickets to watch us fly airplanes.

Sure it sucks, I wish I could have been better at Baseball.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I don't remember a collective on the website determining anything like that.

We're professional pilots, Chris. We discuss things AS professional pilots. Yes, I too had a lot of pie-in-the-sky/"book learnin'" ideas about stuff but they went out the window when I saw the realities of the profession from the inside.

I'm referring to how people are complaining that professional athletes are overpaid, when fact is, they're not.

I crap you not, if you go off on the captain about how a 18 hour duty day is a product of a free market economy, he's probably going to knock one of your teeth out.

What is it the product of, then?

Or she.

Do they still let the FA sit in the captain's lap?

If people are questioning viewpoints like the author, I applaud that, especially as a professional.

I agree with what people are saying, but this article was written in the late 90s when pay and work rules were considerably better.... Unfortunately though, it's the stigma we'll all have to live with, unless someone goes about informing the public what the lifestyle is really like.

[Doug Taylor]

My bad.

I misread your statement and thought you were refering to people defending the compensation of professional pilots. I owe you a beer for that one.

On the professional athlete thing, I both agree and disagree. They live in a strange world of $800 million taxpayer financed stadiums, full-ride collegiate scholarships at public schools (taxpayer!) and an entire system in states like Texas where "winning state" is more important than if the star running back can read.

If you took the taxpayer-financed elements of sports and reflected the actual cost in ticket fees and concession prices without the crutch of "public-private joint enterprises", sweetheart tax deals and whatnot, then professional sports would be that free-market.

I'm glad (insert athlete's name here) can earn $15 million for doing a triple-double, but the entire system set up around him is anything but free market. Especially when most folks renting a car, booking a hotel room or paying a 'penny tax' for the new stadium could give less of a crap about professional sports.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

My bad.

I misread your statement and thought you were refering to people defending the compensation of professional pilots. I owe you a beer for that one.

On the professional athlete thing, I both agree and disagree. They live in a strange world of $800 million taxpayer financed stadiums, full-ride collegiate scholarships at public schools (taxpayer!) and an entire system in states like Texas where "winning state" is more important than if the star running back can read.

If you took the taxpayer-financed elements of sports and reflected the actual cost in ticket fees and concession prices without the crutch of "public-private joint enterprises", sweetheart tax deals and whatnot, then professional sports would be that free-market.

I'm glad (insert athlete's name here) can earn $15 million for doing a triple-double, but the entire system set up around him is anything but free market. Especially when most folks renting a car, booking a hotel room or paying a 'penny tax' for the new stadium could give less of a crap about professional sports.

[Doug Taylor]

Manny Garcia, whoops, muchos gracias!

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

My bad.

I misread your statement and thought you were refering to people defending the compensation of professional pilots. I owe you a beer for that one.

Hmph, how about a mojito?

On the professional athlete thing, I both agree and disagree. They live in a strange world of $800 million taxpayer financed stadiums, full-ride collegiate scholarships at public schools (taxpayer!) and an entire system in states like Texas where "winning state" is more important than if the star running back can read.

If you took the taxpayer-financed elements of sports and reflected the actual cost in ticket fees and concession prices without the crutch of "public-private joint enterprises", sweetheart tax deals and whatnot, then professional sports would be that free-market.

I'm glad (insert athlete's name here) can earn $15 million for doing a triple-double, but the entire system set up around him is anything but free market. Especially when most folks renting a car, booking a hotel room or paying a 'penny tax' for the new stadium could give less of a crap about professional sports.

Ehhhhhhhhhh the relationship is highly symbiotic. Look at how much money the Fiesta Bowl brings in a year (60,000 fans from out of state = $$$$$!!!), not to mention the Super Bowl which will be in Glendale in '08, IIRC. World Series at BOB (errr CF, a name I prefer much better ), Suns playoff games, etc etc etc are great for the local economy.

As for the scholarship stuff, the football team at Penn State makes enough in one year to finance every other sports team (men and women's) and pay out every sports scholarship.

[Fly-By]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Not calling you a communist, but I just think it's funny when individuals cry out "it's not fair they get paid X" when in fact, it's just how the market works. Life != fair. Pretty girls get all the free drinks and the dates with the QB of the football team, that's life, you have to play the cards you're dealt.

I can't wait for the day someone walks upto you and punches you in the face, and when you ask them why they did that...........it's cuz its how the market works! Life= fair.

You've got a lot of maturing to do kid. May I ask you what your age is?

[Doug Taylor]

I'm just going to nitpick one point because I'm lazy this morning and have some stuff to do.

While it's fine and dandy that Penn State has a team that makes enough to finance the entire sports program at the college, as a public institution of higher learning, that's still not constructive.

On one hand, we need to focus our universities on attracting and creating new engineers, scientists, etc -- people that are going to build a modern, technological nation in order for the United States to remain relevant and cutting edge in the future. It should have been a wakeup call when large parts of major univerisities engineering departments are run by professors on work visas teaching pupils that a large percentage (majority?) of are on student visas. If we think we're going to remain a world power when the average 20 year old knows more about who won American Idol than a basic understanding of the pythagorean theory, we're kidding ourselves.

On the other, I'm a 'doubting thomas' about the benefit of professional sports on the local economy because it happens in short spurts. The Fiesta Bowl may have a three or four day visitor footprint, the superbowl is always this holy grail that everyone attains to have but on the Monday after, the 'cost' side of the cost/benefit curve is negligible (much like the Olympics -- been to SLC or Torino recently?). Los Angeles wasn't crushed when the Rams and the Raiders left. St. Louis didn't economically float down the poop chute when the Cardinals left. I feel professional sports should self-finance without taxpayer dollars because as a citizen, the residual isn't worth the price.

Besides, the Superbowl is the single most overhyped event on earth. The world isn't chomping at the bits wondering if the Vikings are going to beat the Seahawks, no matter what Thom Brennamen says.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Fly-By

I can't wait for the day someone walks upto you and punches you in the face, and when you ask them why they did that...........it's cuz its how the market works! Life= fair.

You've got a lot of maturing to do kid. May I ask you what your age is?

Me getting punched in the face is the result of the market? Maybe being slapped by the invisible hand.

I'm just going to make a broad generalization here, but judging from your location, you're one of those Berkeley geniuses who thinks you can't "own" property and that animals are people too.

I'm 21, but don't let that stop you from trying to produce a cogent counter-argument. You're debating with me that this ISN'T how things are. You're saying that athletes are not paid so much because that's how it is... Do you see how irrational that is?

[S40_flyer]

I bet the guy who wrote all that is some former airline pilot who lost his medical or soemthing and now hates all pilots for life...

[desertdog71]

I agree with you on the Teams self financing their own stadiums and such, I have no problem with that at all.

I do feel that without Sports teams, and the revenues they generate on the college level, it is quite possible that tuitions would be higher, and the facilities would not be as modern. Sponsorship dollars are huge in college atheletics and I am certain that all of that revenue is not going back to ONLY the sports programs.

I would on the other hand prefer that local taxes be spent on infra-structure and schools as opposed to other crap. It always pisses me off when they want to raise property taxes and still leave huge potholes in the streets, crappy city services, and not enough police and fire funding. Then our own children have to go and peddle crap door to door to pay for equipment and books at the schools. That sort of thing pisses me off more than an athelete making huge dollars.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

On one hand, we need to focus our universities on attracting and creating new engineers, scientists, etc -- people that are going to build a modern, technological nation in order for the United States to remain relevant and cutting edge in the future. It should have been a wakeup call when large parts of major univerisities engineering departments are run by professors on work visas teaching pupils that a large percentage (majority?) of are on student visas. If we think we're going to remain a world power when the average 20 year old knows more about who won American Idol than a basic understanding of the pythagorean theory, we're kidding ourselves.

Agree wholeheartedly. HOWEVER, at Purdue for an example, our university president has changed the focus of the university to a "research institution". This has taken professors out of the classroom and into the lab, and ultimately raised our tuition in order to gain "prestige".

A university is there to teach. Athletics and research are secondary. However, one can argue that providing some of these athletes with the opportunity to go to college may benefit them, although I realize very few make much out of it (but there are a few for whom it has made a difference, so let's not discount that). Research, on the other hand, has no place in a university outside of designated projects for students. A professor is a teacher, not a scientist, and if they want to do research, there are plenty of laboratories that are government funded for that purpose.

On the other, I'm a 'doubting thomas' about the benefit of professional sports on the local economy because it happens in short spurts. The Fiesta Bowl may have a three or four day visitor footprint, the superbowl is always this holy grail that everyone attains to have but on the Monday after, the 'cost' side of the cost/benefit curve is negligible (much like the Olympics -- been to SLC or Torino recently?). Los Angeles wasn't crushed when the Rams and the Raiders left. St. Louis didn't economically float down the poop chute when the Cardinals left. I feel professional sports should self-finance without taxpayer dollars because as a citizen, the residual isn't worth the price.

Besides, the Superbowl is the single most overhyped event on earth. The world isn't chomping at the bits wondering if the Vikings are going to beat the Seahawks, no matter what Thom Brennamen says.

First, the Vikings and Seahawks are in the same conference .
Second, I agree that it's a short time, but often times these events will serve to revitalize the area. Look at how Baltimore's waterfront district renewed itself with the opening of Oriole Park at Camden Yards.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by S40_flyer

I bet the guy who wrote all that is some former airline pilot who lost his medical or soemthing and now hates all pilots for life...

Or maybe he's a layman who reads posts like yours and thinks that pilots are too cocky for what they do?

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

"Most people" might not be able to hack as a pilot, but even less can make it to professional athlete.

You gotta throw in the minor leagues, all the way from rookie league to AAA ball, Europe, the arena league, the CFL, all the pro soccer leagues, the PGA and LPGA, Nascar, IRL, and F-1, etc first because all of those folks are professional athletes.

[mastermags]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You gotta throw in the minor leagues, all the way from rookie league to AAA ball, Europe, the arena league, the CFL, all the pro soccer leagues, the PGA and LPGA, Nascar, IRL, and F-1, etc first because all of those folks are professional athletes.

Don't forget the WNBA....1!11!!!

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You gotta throw in the minor leagues, all the way from rookie league to AAA ball, Europe, the arena league, the CFL, all the pro soccer leagues, the PGA and LPGA, Nascar, IRL, and F-1, etc first because all of those folks are professional athletes.

Okay, and if you think wages suck at a regional, find out what someone in A-ball makes. I'll give you a clue. X,XXX is the number. If that. Further proof that pro athletes are certainly not overpaid.

Also, take a look at how many people try to be pro athletes. Look how many HS and college sports players there are, and you'll see that it's much much harder to become a pro athlete than a pilot. Seriously, think about the hardest test in aviation, the ATP written, right? Now, recognize that you're given all the questions and answers beforehand. Imagine how much more of a barrier it might be if they didn't tell you what the questions and answers were... This is still not even comparable to the barriers one needs to meet to become a pro athlete. Not to mention how easy it is to lose it all because of one minor injury (more minor than anything you'd lose your medical for). Since you guys like examples, I'll give one. A girl I know was #1 in the state I lived in for soccer, being actively recruited by the big female soccer schools (and at the time, the now-defunct WUSA). Gets taken down, gets up, plays the rest of the game, etc. A few days later she goes to the doctor because her leg hurts. one minor knee surgery later, her career is over. Now knee surgery on a pilot might put him out of service for a few months, but not the rest of his life.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Okay, and if you think wages suck at a regional, find out what someone in A-ball makes. I'll give you a clue. X,XXX is the number. If that. Further proof that pro athletes are certainly not overpaid.

I never said they were.

I've got a buddy who got up to AA ball for the Expos/Nationals before he blew out his shoulder. I think he was paid about $30K a year or so. He was hoping to get to the show for a cup of coffee because then they would have to pay him the major league minimum.

I also knew someone who played for the DC United, and he was getting $30-35K. Not a huge amount of money, but a decent wage.

You've got a star system in aviation just like you do with sports and Hollywood. You've got a lot of guys scraping by, and then there is a small percentage that does very well. The only thing is, the numbers are a lot bigger for an A-Rod or Ahnold than they are for a pilot.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You've got a star system in aviation just like you do with sports and Hollywood. You've got a lot of guys scraping by, and then there is a small percentage that does very well. The only thing is, the numbers are a lot bigger for an A-Rod or Ahnold than they are for a pilot.

Which goes back to my "the market dictates who makes exorbitant amounts of money". Since people pay $100/seat to see A-Rod (since he's such a rarity), he's able to make $252M. Since people pay $100/seat JFK-NRT, Captain Senior is able to make $252K (I know it's high but the parallelism is aesthetically pleasing )