It's labor's fault!!!!!!!

[Seggy]

I had dinner last night with a good buddy of mine. He is working in finance for a major firm. The division he is working closly with? Airlines...

His company raises money for airlines, advises airlines, bankrupcy reorginization, and other factors dealing with the airlines. His boss is a very big deal and has taken my friend as his mentor. The FIRST, the VERY FIRST thing his boss said to him when he started was, "It is ALWAYS labor's fault." Then he asked me what I thought of it (let me say he is a good guy, I think he was asking me to see what I think so maybe he can advise his boss better).

We had an interesting conversation after that and he was definetly taking my side into consideration. Even got a call today from him and said he definetly sees our point, labors, point of view.

We are screwed as an industry with the bigwigs thinking the way they do!

[C150J]

I hear you. I took an airline management course back in college and you should have heard the words coming out of Paul Foley's mouth... unbelievable. I voiced my opinions to my class and swayed a moderate number of them, but here's what a kid said to me after taking it this year (I took it last year):

"No one deserves that much for doing so little" - in reference to senior int'l lineholders. GAHG! It wasn't as much the salary argument that it was the "so little" statement.

J.

[Dugie8]

Our TA, if you can call it that, was just recieved in the mail today. When it was "slammed" down on the negotiating table, with a moderator there, management said "Sign it, or we will shut the doors..." The TA is a piece of crap, to put it politely. Here is my problem with the whole situation. We, pilots, are paid to move the airplane from point A to point B, safely, economically and in the case of PAX ops, comfortabley. All of a sudden the company is having trouble making money, while we, again the pilots, have a stellar reliability (thanks to good mechanics) and zero accidents. My question is, if we, the pilots, are doing our jobs, why do we, the pilots, have to take a pay cut while they, management, who are not doing their job, putting freight in the airplane, do not take any pay cut???

[deserteaglle]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

My question is, if we, the pilots, are doing our jobs, why do we, the pilots, have to take a pay cut while they, management, who are not doing their job, putting freight in the airplane, do not take any pay cut???

Tell me that's a rhetorical question, please.

The reason is, THEY'RE management. They make the decisions, and they don't want a paycut, therefore, as long as they can pay the pilots less, they will, and will expect to keep the same salary, and get raises every once in a while. Their mindset is that there are pilots everywhere, and there will always be pilots to put up with it.

I'm not saying it's right or good business at all, but you're "question" really doesn't do anything other than make it known that you're being cheated and you're not happy about it.

[Doug Taylor]

Well, when we had engine problems a couple weeks ago on takeoff, there wasn't a management type in sight that could help us get the plane back to Chicago safely.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by deserteaglle

Tell me that's a rhetorical question, please.

The reason is, THEY'RE management. They make the decisions, and they don't want a paycut, therefore, as long as they can pay the pilots less, they will, and will expect to keep the same salary, and get raises every once in a while. Their mindset is that there are pilots everywhere, and there will always be pilots to put up with it.

I'm not saying it's right or good business at all, but you're "question" really doesn't do anything other than make it known that you're being cheated and you're not happy about it.

Not a rhetorical question at all. Pilots are doing their job, period. We cost the company no money while doing our jobs, ie we creat profit from our reliability and safety record. Management has the job of putting the freight in the airplane, and it is out there in abbundance, so why do I take the pay cut for doing my job, while management does not, for not doing theirs. Simple question.

[deserteaglle]

And I answered it, as long as they're making the decisions they are not going to give themselves a pay cut to themselves.

[Sprint100]

Originally Posted by deserteaglle

The reason is, THEY'RE management.

No matter how it's sliced as long as there is a business they will, for the most part, get what they want salary wise. Being fair, etc. is not their concern, market value is.

[Ophir]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Well, when we had engine problems a couple weeks ago on takeoff, there wasn't a management type in sight that could help us get the plane back to Chicago safely.

I thought that's who you talked to on Atlanta Radio ..... Management

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by Seggy

I had dinner last night with a good buddy of mine. He is working in finance for a major firm. The division he is working closly with? Airlines...

His company raises money for airlines, advises airlines, bankrupcy reorginization, and other factors dealing with the airlines. His boss is a very big deal and has taken my friend as his mentor. The FIRST, the VERY FIRST thing his boss said to him when he started was, "It is ALWAYS labor's fault." Then he asked me what I thought of it (let me say he is a good guy, I think he was asking me to see what I think so maybe he can advise his boss better).

We had an interesting conversation after that and he was definetly taking my side into consideration. Even got a call today from him and said he definetly sees our point, labors, point of view.

We are screwed as an industry with the bigwigs thinking the way they do!

There has always been labor problem in the airlines, saying that, the fault is sometimes on the side of management, sometime on the side of the Unions.

There is an excellent book called Hard Landing, pretty good read.....

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Not a rhetorical question at all. Pilots are doing their job, period. We cost the company no money while doing our jobs, ie we creat profit from our reliability and safety record. Management has the job of putting the freight in the airplane, and it is out there in abbundance, so why do I take the pay cut for doing my job, while management does not, for not doing theirs. Simple question.

Pretty naive type of comment, yes, you are doing the job of the pilot, but, what happens when the business model changes, prices are forced down, & the cost for the pilot has to go down?

Management takes pay cuts & can lose their job as well.

Just wanted to bring another point of view into the argument, but, the idea that I am right & they are wrong, is, kind of out of date.

Now, before you jump at my throat, pilots should be paid good salary, their job is very technical....

Over the years, both sides, Management & the Unions have made some terrible deciscions which have impacted the airlines bottomline.....

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Pretty naive type of comment, yes, you are doing the job of the pilot, but, what happens when the business model changes, prices are forced down, & the cost for the pilot has to go down?

Management takes pay cuts & can lose their job as well.

Just wanted to bring another point of view into the argument, but, the idea that I am right & they are wrong, is, kind of out of date.

Now, before you jump at my throat, pilots should be paid good salary, their job is very technical....

Over the years, both sides, Management & the Unions have made some terrible deciscions which have impacted the airlines bottomline.....

I guess I was speaking to my current job now. Management wants pay cuts, increase insurance payments (that I get), etc, all while tons of freight is out there for the taking.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

all while tons of freight is out there for the taking.

While that may be, there are also a lot of supplemental operators out there willing to fly the freight. You're in the same situation that the regionals are in, IMO, just with larger aircraft.

I'm guessing you fly for ATI or BAX, is that correct?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

While that may be, there are also a lot of supplemental operators out there willing to fly the freight. You're in the same situation that the regionals are in, IMO, just with larger aircraft.

I'm guessing you fly for ATI or BAX, is that correct?

ATI, which is now owned by CHI YAAAAY!

The problem is, how do you define "fair market value?" Sure some of the Dayton carriers could come in and do what we do for less, BUT their reliability rates are 80% at best, while we are runnig 96+% for the last 5 years or so. It is more of a moral objection than a purely financial one. How can you, in good faith, negotiate a contract by throwing down a POS of a TA and then threaten to close the doors and give the flying to someone who can't do the job that needs to be done (no offense to any of those pilots, just the operation).

Fair market value to me isn't a snapshot of price, but a long term cost. Our lease rates for the DC8 are really low, what is killing us is the shortage of CFM56 engines (<----side note info).

I see the flaw in my argument, but I was merely thinking out loud on a moral level.