Reverse Offshoring: US Pilots Signing On with Foreign Airlines

[tonyw]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1146...ys_us_page_one

Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.

But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."

In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001 terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.

At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.

So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to seniority.

Who'd have thunk it? We bitch about Sanjeev doing our jobs for half the pay and that being the reason why they send jobs to India, but who'd have thought that India would be willing to pay double the wages to pilots?

[Sodbuster]

I've been saying that this is the best gig going for a while. Just ask Wilko or NYer914... I've always wanted to "Fly the Good Times" with Kingfisher Airlines in India.

[DE727UPS]

Very interesting article. Would be nice if it becomes a pipeline, or option, for regional guys to move on as opposed to just furloughed legacy guys.

[typhoonpilot]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Very interesting article. Would be nice if it becomes a pipeline, or option, for regional guys to move on as opposed to just furloughed legacy guys.

It is becoming that way DE. EK and Cathay both hire guys from the regionals. Cathay has been doing so for awhile while EK just started.

Still, if I were in my 20s I wouldn't go looking for a job overseas. At times it can be a difficult life. The best job going is with a major in your home country. The international scene is for those of us who's majors imploded or who got a late start in their career and want to have a faster track to the left seat of a widebody.

TP

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

It is becoming that way DE. EK and Cathay both hire guys from the regionals. Cathay has been doing so for awhile while EK just started.

Still, if I were in my 20s I wouldn't go looking for a job overseas. At times it can be a difficult life. The best job going is with a major in your home country. The international scene is for those of us who's majors imploded or who got a late start in their career and want to have a faster track to the left seat of a widebody.

TP

TP, I don't know how you can say the best job going with a major in your home country. I would love to work for a US Major but unfortunately, that isn't going to happen for long time for us in the night freight business and those in the regionals.

If I were single I would be overseas in a minute. My only hesitation would be about mx and security abroad (and that is because I haven't researched it).

DE I couldn't agree with you more...

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

The international scene is for those of us who's majors imploded or who got a late start in their career and want to have a faster track to the left seat of a widebody.

You may want to take a gander at the article. The guy who they lead the story with had a lot of time in at US Airways, but yeah, I guess his major imploded. Which one hasn't?

If you have access to the rest of the article, make sure you check it out. There are a number of guys who are talking about leaving their current carrier to go fly for an overseas one.

[Runway_Sweeper]

I had a neighbor who's brother flies for KAL and lives in Manila. He says they live like freakin' maharajas with their own gated estate, servants etc. May not be a bad gig if you don't mind living overseas.

[typhoonpilot]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

TP, I don't know how you can say the best job going with a major in your home country. I would love to work for a US Major but unfortunately, that isn't going to happen for long time for us in the night freight business and those in the regionals.

If I were single I would be overseas in a minute. My only hesitation would be about mx and security abroad (and that is because I haven't researched it).

DE I couldn't agree with you more...

I can say that because I have done both. I do admit though, that I don't say it with as much conviction as I used to. I have to qualify the majors now as I don't think a job at USAirways, DAL, NWA, UAL, AA, and a few others matches a good overseas job. Fedex, UPS, and possibly SWA do offer a far better long term career for a guy in his 20s though. It's the intangibles that make it that way. Living at home, being near your relatives, being in a country that you are used to, etc.

That said: I think going overseas is a great option for guys furloughed from the failing airlines; those who took early retirement and want to work for a few more years; or those who are older and want to make it to the left seat of a widebody before they retire.

Tony:

The guy they led the article with is a good friend of mine and I have read the whole article.

The reason I have a good reputation for giving advice is that I don't make statements that I don't believe to be true. EK is great for me and it is great for Brian, but I wouldn't recommend it to a guy in his 20s who still had the chance for a full career at UPS, Fedex, or a few others places.


TP

[greaper007]

Typhoon, when you say a guy in his 20s, do you mean someone that is about to get hired at a major in his 20s, or perhaps someone like me that's a flight instructor at 25?

[Alchemy]

I know of several guys at my regional that have been hired and others that are trying to get on with Cathay Pacific.

They will even take regional FO's for S.O./cruise F.O. positions. The interview is very intensive and requires a lot of studying, but the payoff is worth it if you can deal with the possibility of a drastic relocation.

I hear that life at these places can be tricky, since a lot of these airlines don't necessarily promote based on seniority (street captains and whatnot) and a lot of the european and aussie pilots look down their noses at US guys. Nothing is ever easy though....

[DE727UPS]

"a guy in his 20s who still had the chance for a full career at UPS, Fedex, or a few others places"

Not to change the subject, but I doubt many guys get to the few "good" jobs in the US in their 20's. Heck, I was 29 and that was back in the day when UPS was hiring warm bodies. Anymore, an ex-military guy or guy who has spent years getting competitve with PIC turbine and networking, is going to be more like 35. I'm sure the average figure is more like 35, these days.

[scottyboy75]

How is life in Dubai? I see there is a helicopter company hiring with a 6week on 8week off schedule. Is it a pretty safe place?

[mrivc211]

C'mon Don- Help a brotha out! Goin on 26. Please don't tell me another 9 years of regional life. I'll commit suicide. Then UPS/FEDEX will send a invitation for an interview the week after I hang myself. Doh!

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Runway_Sweeper

I had a neighbor who's brother flies for KAL and lives in Manila. He says they live like freakin' maharajas with their own gated estate, servants etc. May not be a bad gig if you don't mind living overseas.

Man, the last time I was in Manila, $30 would get you a -

Ohhh, this is the wrong forum for that . . .

[typhoonpilot]

Originally Posted by greaper007

Typhoon, when you say a guy in his 20s, do you mean someone that is about to get hired at a major in his 20s, or perhaps someone like me that's a flight instructor at 25?

For 99.9% of pilots who are aiming for a career in aviation I would say that your primary target should be the good majors in your home country. Those are generally the best jobs. I wouldn't start from the beginning with the ideas of being an expat pilot for two primary reasons: 1) Most expat jobs are inherently unstable ( short term contracts, nationalization, jealousy, etc all play into that ) and 2) It's not your home country and you will always be an outsider.

I'm actually going to great pains to say that on this forum because this forum is generally younger pilots. Now that I have said that, I can say that expat jobs are a great option for those who may not have been fortunate enough to get hired by a major; those who are toiling away at a regional; or those who have ( through no fault of their own ) had a rocky career. The pay is generally good and the lifestyle can be great. You just have to be able to deal with points one and two above.


Scotty:


Dubai is very safe. The only danger is driving on the roads. Life here is excellent as long as you have accommodation paid for and make decent money. If you are looking at a helicopter gig here make sure they have a suitable housing allowance or give you a villa and pay the utilities. If you are renting on your own expect to pay around $2500 per month for a three bedroom apartment and around $4000 per month for a 4 bedroom villa.


TP

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

C'mon Don- Help a brotha out! Goin on 26. Please don't tell me another 9 years of regional life. I'll commit suicide. Then UPS/FEDEX will send a invitation for an interview the week after I hang myself. Doh!

A shiny new jet, a leather jacket and the ability to tell the ladies, "Amma pilot!" doesn't make ends meet?

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

EK is great for me and it is great for Brian, but I wouldn't recommend it to a guy in his 20s who still had the chance for a full career at UPS, Fedex, or a few others places.

Fair enough. However, here's my question to you. Who knows if they're going to have that chance for a full career these days?

Seriously, a few years ago, we'd have said US Airways and America West would be gone, but look what's happening. Who knows which "stable" airline will be the next to get in trouble?

Just something to ponder. You really like it, too, so that's great news. More options for people is always good news.

[Kingairer]

Originally Posted by typhoonpilot

For 99.9% of pilots who are aiming for a career in aviation I would say that your primary target should be the good majors in your home country. Those are generally the best jobs. I wouldn't start from the beginning with the ideas of being an expat pilot for two primary reasons: 1) Most expat jobs are inherently unstable ( short term contracts, nationalization, jealousy, etc all play into that ) and 2) It's not your home country and you will always be an outsider.

I'm actually going to great pains to say that on this forum because this forum is generally younger pilots. Now that I have said that, I can say that expat jobs are a great option for those who may not have been fortunate enough to get hired by a major; those who are toiling away at a regional; or those who have ( through no fault of their own ) had a rocky career. The pay is generally good and the lifestyle can be great. You just have to be able to deal with points one and two above.


Scotty:


Dubai is very safe. The only danger is driving on the roads. Life here is excellent as long as you have accommodation paid for and make decent money. If you are looking at a helicopter gig here make sure they have a suitable housing allowance or give you a villa and pay the utilities. If you are renting on your own expect to pay around $2500 per month for a three bedroom apartment and around $4000 per month for a 4 bedroom villa.


TP

Thanks for keepin it real.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by tonyw

We bitch about Sanjeev doing our jobs for half the pay and that being the reason why they send jobs to India, but who'd have thought that India would be willing to pay double the wages to pilots?

Having looked at many of the foreign jobs, including UAE and deciding to stay in the US to work, because for one the pay was comparable or better, I would ask you to point out which Indian airline is paying "double the wages". Thanks.

However, here's my question to you. Who knows if they're going to have that chance for a full career these days?

The US airline industry has always been of marginal profitablity and stability. That is the major misconception that many young aviators have. The period of the 90s was unusual. Many of you think that's the norm. While this current shakeout is unprecedented, it has always been a bit of a silly notion that you could count on a 30+ year career at one company. So welcome to the real world.

BTW, it may also be a silly notion that all the currently booming foreign carriers will provide a stable 30 year career. 30 years is a lot to ask of any industry or any individual company. Add a pension program and you are asking for 50 or 60 years.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by flyover

Having looked at many of the foreign jobs, including UAE and deciding to stay in the US to work, because for one the pay was comparable or better, I would ask you to point out which Indian airline is paying "double the wages". Thanks.

First paragraph of the story, my friend.

his total compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and vacation -- is superior.

Further down in the story...

pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."

Finally, in the close to the story...

Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a process he says could take 2½ years. If he succeeds, his pay will climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and $180 an hour for anything exceeding that.

He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary] as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no point."

So you are right, my friend, I was wrong. It's not double the wages, it's quadruple. My bad.

[flyover]

Originally Posted by tonyw

So you are right, my friend, I was wrong. It's not double the wages, it's quadruple. My bad.

No problem, that confirms what I thought. For comparable seats, pay is comparable.

Housing and some tax benefits definitely sweeten the pot. But they would have to sweeten it to get pilots to relocate over there. I'd have to pay for a divorce for one thing.

Ex-pat flying has been around for as long as airplanes. Many countries rely on America and Europe for their pilots. I had a chance to go to work for Saudi 30 years ago.

I wish all these guys the best, they deserve it. But giving up on flying domestically because ex-pat flying is a panacea, don't think so.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by flyover

I wish all these guys the best, they deserve it. But giving up on flying domestically because ex-pat flying is a panacea, don't think so.

There are definitely pros and cons to both, but I think that more options for employment is a good thing in the end.

And that's what it's all about in the end -- there are more options for pilots to get paid to fly. This is good for the profession.

[Kingairer]

A remedy for all diseases, evils, or difficulties; a cure-all.

[Chris_Ford]

I see that Kingairer has been visiting dictionary.com today.

"What is a panacea?"

[flyover]

Originally Posted by tonyw

There are definitely pros and cons to both, but I think that more options for employment is a good thing in the end.

And that's what it's all about in the end -- there are more options for pilots to get paid to fly. This is good for the profession.

Agree.