Citation logging

[johns13b]

I've read many log discussions, but none really touch this one. (that I could find)

Part 91 operation....Citation II....type certificate requires two pilots....however, it's possible to get a single pilot type rating for this a/c (don't know how that works, but that's another issue)...according to the FARs, when an operation doesn't require a second pilot, the co-pilot may not log SIC time.

However, I also understand if the PIC is single pilot rated, the operator of the aircraft can bring in another pilot at their wishes since the plane is certified for two pilots, and SIC may be logged.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's odd to me, if a company wants to bring in a co-pilot on a plane that is type certified for two, and there cannot be SIC logged (due to the Captain's S.E. type rating).

So, can SIC be logged? Thanks all.

[BobDDuck]

Under Part 91 I am going to say no. If it was operated under 121 or 135 and the company required the other pilot then you would be good to go even if they were Single Pilot Typed. There are a lot of 1900 guys floating around with single pilot type ratings, but operating in a 121 environment were the right seater logs SIC time.

[jonnyb]

Without question whatsoever, a qualified SIC or PIC may log SIC in this situation. By far, most Citation operations are conducted with two pilots. In part 91 ops, the PIC can elect to use or not use an SIC. If a QUALIFIED SIC is used, he will log it. This was an easy one!

P.S. I can't wait to see what people come up with about this one.

[johns13b]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

a qualified SIC or PIC may log SIC in this situation. By far, most Citation operations are conducted with two pilots. In part 91 ops, the PIC can elect to use or not use an SIC.

This makes most sense to me. I called CFIs, AOPA, and some other people who "should" know. Sometimes one has to interpret FARs, not read them.

I'd like to hear some other opinions....it could get interesting to say the least.

[Texasspilot]

I would say that it depends how you two operate the aircraft. If all you do is sit there and do a crossword puzzle then no.

However if your running checklists, radios, and flying. Basically all regular SIC duties then why not. If people log SIC in a kingair 200 then you can log it in the big twin cessna. Remember though you do need your 3 landings in order to be SIC qualed for part 91.

As for the single pilot type. When I was flying one I was told it took quite a bit more training as well as some mods to the airplane.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by Texasspilot

I would say that it depends how you two operate the aircraft. If all you do is sit there and do a crossword puzzle then no.

However if your running checklists, radios, and flying. Basically all regular SIC duties then why not. If people log SIC in a kingair 200 then you can log it in the big twin cessna. Remember though you do need your 3 landings in order to be SIC qualed for part 91.

As for the single pilot type. When I was flying one I was told it took quite a bit more training as well as some mods to the airplane.

I really don't think it matters what one is doing in the cockpit. If you're a QUALIFIED crew member assigned as an SIC in a Citation, of course you can log it. Who cares if one is taking an active role in the cockpit. Yes, it seems silly that someone would want to just sit in the right seat like a bump on a log, but that's between the Captain and FO, no one else.

So, if one is QUALIFIED and assigned as an FO, then....well......you're the FO! Log the time. There is a difference between logging time as an SIC in a King Air or Twin (piston) Cessna and a Citation, let's not get those mixed up.

One more thing; there is more required to be considered "qualified" than just 3 takeoffs and landings. You can review the regs for this information.

[johns13b]

yeah...61.55 goes pretty in depth

[RynoB]

I had a similar problem. I've been flying a Citation CJ1 and CJ3 for the past 5 years. Both are a CE-525. We fly with a crew of two. Both of us have ce-525 S (single-pilot) type ratings. Under the limitations, it says:

MINIMUM CREW
Minimum crew for all operations:
1. Pilot, provided:
a. The pilot holds a CE525(S), single pilot, type rating.
b. The airplane is equipped for single pilot operation as specified in the Kinds of Operations Equipment List.
c. The pilot must occupy the left pilot's seat.

or

1. Pilot and one Copilot, provided:
a. The pilot in command holds a CE525(S) or CE 525 (second-in-command required) type rating.

I asked 2 FAA inspectors from 2 different FSDOs about this. They both said that the SIC time can be logged under Part 91 operations. Both did say, however, that it might not count toward total time requirements for a new certificate or rating.

Hope this helps.

[CapnJim]

I'm gessin' yer want'n to log yer ATP pony ride as SIC? Don't do it. Yer settin' yerself up fer a buncha uncomfortable questions about Citation systems when you interview for a job, and no one gives a rat's red about 3 hours in a Citation II anyway. Jes' log it Turbine and move on.

[rasec]

Im glad this came up. I have a similar question. If im flying in the right seat of a King Air 350 with no type rating, but the PIC is also an MEI and signs my logbook, what does it count as? Can it be logged as SIC or does it only count towards my total time?

[Texasspilot]

350 requires a co-pilot right? So it should be SIC and you should have recieved all the proper training etc..

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by Texasspilot

350 requires a co-pilot right? So it should be SIC and you should have recieved all the proper training etc..

A 350 is certified (or certificated in fed speak) for single pilot operations. I don't know if it has the provisions for a second pilot like I posted above.

[rasec]

It only requires single pilot operations. So would I still be able to log SIC or would it only count towards total time

[FlyingNole]

Do you log HP as well?

[MidlifeFlyer]

I don't know the specifics of the Citation's certification, so I can't answer the bottom line. But, qualification issues aside, a necessary condition for logging SIC is that a second pilot is =required= by either the aircraft type certificate or by an operational regulation.

If neither an aircraft certification rule nor an operational rule require two pilots, then you can't log SIC in the airplane. that much is pretty clear under the regs.

rasec, if it's not PIC, SIC, or "instruction received" or "instruction given" then it's not "total time" either. In your King Air example, if the MEI endorsed you logbook for instruction given, you fit into the "instruction received" and "total time" category, but that's it.

[johns13b]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

I'm gessin' yer want'n to log yer ATP pony ride as SIC?

No, I've pretty much realized that an SIC ATP ride isn't something I want to do. However, I've been given the oppurtunity to fly SIC....later on possibly acting as PIC. I just need to get the Type before I fly for them. That's not for a while though.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by johns13b

No, I've pretty much realized that an SIC ATP ride isn't something I want to do. However, I've been given the oppurtunity to fly SIC....later on possibly acting as PIC. I just need to get the Type before I fly for them. That's not for a while though.

Are you saying that "they" are asking you to pay for your own type rating in the Citation? If so, I recommend you respectfully decline. No one should have to pay for a type rating with the exception of experienced contract pilots, which for them is just one of the costs of doing business. Just some advice.

[johns13b]

They haven't asked anything yet. I'm a friend of someone in the operation, and it was brought up that "We could work something out." I don't plan on paying for my own type. I was just curious what I would have to go through, and if it would be worth the trouble. I don't want to work for someone, and decide to move on years later, and not have as much to show for it because I couldn't log it. Long story...