Avoiding the Regionals...

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

And if we did not have a senority system or alot of our out dated ways of labor and management ideals, this industry would be in the long run very good to work in.

Upgrades based on merit?

That'd be fun watching guys backstab one another for that fourth stripe.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

And if we did not have a senority system or alot of our out dated ways of labor and management ideals, this industry would be in the long run very good to work in.

How would that work then? You get graded on your PC - how would you grade it? Perhaps you get graded on your on-time departures, or arrivals, or perhaps we put G-meters in the planes and grade on how soft the landing is, or we could have ATC grade us on radio use or have passengers fill out survey cards or have the FA grade us, or the rampers, or get graded on line checks or.......

The reasons we have senority is because there is NOTHING else to grade us on - the whole goal is for us all to be deemed adequate. Anybody who is adequate gets to pass go and be an airline pilot, anybody who isn't doesn't. Adequate has to be good enough, anything additional has no value until the ##### really hits the fan, and at that time you have no choice on the 2 people up front - you get what you got.

I don't like the union, but at least I recognise it's all we've got. If it wasn't for ALPA can you IMAGINE what the first year FO pay would be at Mesa (or anywhere for that matter).

[Doug Taylor]

It would probably be a world of 5-year contracts.

Too many sick calls, not enough overtime flying or too many disagreements with maintenance or crew scheduling and you're not renewed.

I know without a union, I'd have gotten raked over the coals when Delta Connection Academy tried to go after me a few months ago. Or my defense would have been much more expensive.

I'm not happy with my union's leadership either, but until you either (a) run for office or (b) attempt to recall them, you have to place the blame on the average line pilot for keeping rotten leadership in place.

[SFLAX]

It would take time and system would be have flaws at first. But remember it is against the law to just fire a person for som BS reason. People would sue and then the companies would pay. Works like this in all other industry. So the lawyer can back stab for partner and that is okay, but if we did it that would be wrong. Come on folks we want to be paid like white collar but we won't accept the work rule of white collar.

[CapnJim]

The work rule being "back-stabbing is a good thing"? Sounds awesome. I can just see the crew rooms filled with boot-licking FO's polishing the rusty sherrifs badges of the Chief pilots for a shot at upgrade... and then the quality of Captains that such a system would invariably reward. Yes, yes, you're right! We should strive to be more like corporate America in everysense! Pitted against one another, graded on the good-ol-boy system rather than on staying stardardized, all racing to the bottom. Managment would love it! And that's a good thing, because what's best for the company is what's best for us, isn't it?

You seem made for Mesa. Best of luck to you.

God how I do get suckered into these hijacks...

Anyhoo...
The "Beaten Horse" forum sounds like a perfect idea. Just fill it with locked threads about all the usual suspects, and we can convieniently link to it when the same question gets asked for the umpteen-thousandth time.

[Doug Taylor]

Actually, many of us are in 'right to work' states which strangely means that you can, in fact, be fired for "almost" any bullcrap reason. There are a few things that you can't be fired for, but many more which are acceptable reasons for termination.

The problem with having a large pilot group and doing away with seniority progression is the 'metric'.

How do you determine if someone's experience is worthy over anothers for upgrade?

Experience? Well, one FO might have 1500 hours in a Seneca and 1500 hours in a CRJ, but another FO might have 1500 hours in a KC-135 and 1500 hours in the CRJ.

Reliability? One person may have no sick calls (but then constantly fly sick in order to not wreck his sick leave metric), but another may have several but refuses to fly with dangerously blocked sinuses.

On-time statistics? The best on-time statistics are when you don't bother with non-rev's, jumpseaters and give unrealistic out/off times to operations. A pilot based in BOS during winter is going to have a different statistic than one based in PHX.

Completion rates? The pilot with the best completion rate may be flying broken aircraft whereas the pilot with the worst completion rate may be taking the broken aircraft and calling maintenance because the other pilot didn't write up an overtemping engine.

Merit? Do you really want to have to meet your chief pilot at his car in the employee parking lot and say, "Great day sir! Hey, I think your memo about OpSpecs was fantastic...lemme get the door... Coffee? You like Coffee? I'm buyin'!" on the walk to the pilot lounge?

How do we realistically determine who is qualified for upgrade to larger aircraft, better schedules and captain upgrade?

[flyover]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

How do we realistically determine who is qualified for upgrade to larger aircraft, better schedules and captain upgrade?

How's about we just ask them?

[Snow]

I dunno, I've heard stories where flight attendants would take sodas and crackers etc off the plane with them at the end of the day for personal use. Normally no one cared, but if they wanted to fire someone for whatever reason, they could just claim they stole company property and that would be the end of it.

On another note, I think regional jets are the worst thing to happen to the industry as far as pilot wages go. How long will it be before comair or expressjet start flying 737s and paying their FOs $25k a year? ACA tried with independance air already.

How many of you would still want to fly for a major when a 777 captn tops out at $80k and a 737 Captn $40k? Cause it looks like that's where it's going if things keep going they way they are.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Snow

I dunno, I've heard stories where flight attendants would take sodas and crackers etc off the plane with them at the end of the day for personal use.

That's a true story.

Do NOT remove crackers, bottles of water or anything from the aircraft because you're "stealing company property."

I flew with one of the contract admin guys a few years ago and they were trying to have a pilot fired for taking a can of soda from the galley.

It sounds doofus to you and I, but don't do it.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by flyover

How's about we just ask them?

"Why yes I'm ready for my 777 captain seat, weekends off and perhaps a diet Tab, thanks for asking!"

[jtrain609]

That's not accurate with FlyI. Comair and ExpressJet would be flying 737's on DAL and CAL routes, where ACA split from their United (and Delta?) contract and started FlyI, flying A320's for themselves and not anybody else.

You CAN NOT have a regional flying equipment as large, or larger than the mainline carrier. Then they're not a feeder company, they're a sister company flying for drastically lower wages. When that happens we're all fux0r.

[CapnJim]

It's not the jets that are the problem, it's the management setting the pay... But they're trying to stay competitive, so it must be the starving CFI's willing to work for cheap... But they need to eat too, so it's really the flight school wages that are at fault... But insurance is expensive, so it's really the insurance companies that are to blame... But if GA aircraft weren't so expensive and dangergous, they would cost less to insure, so, really, the GA manufacturerers are to blame... but they're expensive to manufacture because of all the FAA certification regulations, so really it's the feds... but the Feds just want to keep us safe, so really it's all the GA guys killing themselves off that are the problem...

So! If the GA guys become better plots, then the Feds would back off on the certification requirements, so the manufacturers could make cheaper planes to insure, so the flight schools could pay thier instructors more, so the CFI's would demand higer wages from the regionals, so the majors would have to increase wages to keep pace with the regionals, and then they woudl have to hire better looking flight attendants to be able to compete with the other airlines, and then we could all walk down the street with four beautiful flight attendants on our arms like Leonorda DiCaprio if only those damn GA guys would get thier crap together!

So, help your career! Smash a Bonanza with your car TODAY!





<...and a pa-rtri-dge in a pear treeeeeeeeee...>

[jtrain609]

Well the obvious answer is that lamp is to blame, and I don't care how much Stan loves it.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

But remember it is against the law to just fire a person for som BS reason. People would sue and then the companies would pay. Works like this in all other industry.

[Employment Law 101 hijack]Employment in nearly every U.S. state (other than Montana, oddly enough) is "at-will." "At-will" employment means that your employment may be terminated, by you or your employer, at any time and for any reason. You may be fired for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, so long as it is not an illegal reason (i.e., age, race, gender, religion, participation in a protected activity). When an employee group brings in a union, one of the first things that the union does is try to negotiate a just cause provision and a grievance/arbitration provision into the collective bargaining agreement (under the RLA, the grievance/arbitration mechanism is the System Board of Adjustment, and it is mandatory). A just cause provision generally requires that the employer have a good reason to discipline an employee, and the grievance/arbitration machinery provides an avenue by which the employee can challenge discipline.

So, to sum up, without a union, you are "at-will" and can, in fact, be fired for "some BS reason." With a union, you will have just cause protection and cannot, generally, be fired without a good reason.

[/hijack]

[SFLAX]

CaptnJim,

I seem perfect for Mesa, then you do not know me at all. You need to come down to the crew room one day to see what I am like. Most of the time if you see my comments, are just to play the other side of the coin. I do not agree with most airlines managements decisions. And I am ready for a fight over our next contract. But there needs to be a change in this industry, and I am just trying to find out what it is. We will never go back to the 1950's. This race to the bottom has affective everyone, I have already accepted the fact that to own more then a condo I am going to have to move. I only say things to try to get at the core issuses. As for senority list, I know why we have it and we need it. As for pay and benefits, there needs to be a new way to look at them, or a better system to pay pilots, especially at mesa. Don't worry JO will bring his check book to the next contract. I also like to watch people get all fired up over stuff I say. But I have never insulted a person or deemned them lower then myself. As for the FA getting fired or a pilot for taking a soda, I agree it is stealing, and the someone will always be made an example for the masses. At mesa we had an FA fired for hooking on the over nights, the only reason was that she used the company hotel room.

[CapnJim]

So... you're pretty much just a flame baiter? Awesome. Your stock just went up! Keep the great ideas coming, I'm sure they're useful to us all.

I'm sure you're great in the crew room, but all we know of know of you here is what you post.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

CaptnJim,

At mesa we had an FA fired for hooking on the over nights, the only reason was that she used the company hotel room.

Was she hot?

[CapnJim]

Hell no! Why do you think they wanted to fire her for hooking up?!

[Kingairer]

There is a differnce in "hooking" and "Hooking up"...I am in favor of both however.

[SFLAX]

Jim,

So when some one suggest an idea that may not be kosher, you call them flame baiting. But if are to move forward in this industry we need to look at all ideas. Management is always looking a trying new things, why can't we.

[SFLAX]

Not hot at all, but in some towns we go to she proably was. She was doing it for money.

[CapnJim]

[flyover]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

It's not the jets that are the problem, it's the management setting the pay... But they're trying to stay competitive, so it must be the starving CFI's willing to work for cheap... But they need to eat too, so it's really the flight school wages that are at fault... But insurance is expensive, so it's really the insurance companies that are to blame... But if GA aircraft weren't so expensive and dangergous, they would cost less to insure, so, really, the GA manufacturerers are to blame... but they're expensive to manufacture because of all the FAA certification regulations, so really it's the feds... but the Feds just want to keep us safe, so really it's all the GA guys killing themselves off that are the problem...

So! If the GA guys become better plots, then the Feds would back off on the certification requirements, so the manufacturers could make cheaper planes to insure, so the flight schools could pay thier instructors more, so the CFI's would demand higer wages from the regionals, so the majors would have to increase wages to keep pace with the regionals, and then they woudl have to hire better looking flight attendants to be able to compete with the other airlines, and then we could all walk down the street with four beautiful flight attendants on our arms like Leonorda DiCaprio if only those damn GA guys would get thier crap together!

So, help your career! Smash a Bonanza with your car TODAY!





<...and a pa-rtri-dge in a pear treeeeeeeeee...>

Perfect.

[SFLAX]

Once again a pilot playing the mature card. I see why management must laugh at us while at the club.

[CapnJim]

Not as hard as I laugh at flame-bait!