Avoiding the Regionals...

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by MikeD

How about when we see that with a Skyway 1900?

I think my friend Javed Sheikh is going to retire as a Do328Jet captain. At least I think he's on the Do jet.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

At least I think he's on the Do jet.

Not to be confused with the Dough jet.

[Doug Taylor]

Word.

[SFLAX]

Lets look at a few things. Simple math using averages and 3 year captain pay. If your airline has 3 yr captians. Also we only have 38 900's only captians in PHX and IAH get to fly them, and to get either base as a captian right now is 6 years.

Mesa - Avg Pay for 200/700/900 = $59 per hour x 70 hours = $53,700 per yr
Pinnacle - $59 x 75 hours = $53,100 per yr
Comair - Avg for 200/700 = $59 x 75 hours = $53,100 per yr
PSA - Avg for 200/700 = $59 x 75 = $53,100 per yr
Skywest - $60 x 75 = $54,000

Now lets look at a captian that actually flies the 900 makes.

So a 6 year captian (we only have 20% of our fleet is 900's)

Mesa - $69 x 70 = $62,800 per yr
Pinnacle - $64 x 75 = $57,600 per yr
Comair - $65 x 75 = $58,500
PSA - $66 x 75 = $59,400
Skywest - $65 x 75 = $58,500

So based on the statement that we fly the 900 for 200 rates is incorrect, but also, I will never ever see the 900, b/c I will be long gone before I could hold either base. Plus how many 3 year captians do most of those other regionals have.

[Baronman]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Read what he said - its not so much the hourly pay that is the big factor, it's the work rules. And he acknowledged they suck, no need to turn this discussion into something it isn't...

Pay and work rules are both terrible....Pay is way way out of line for a 90 seater (at least the FO rates are..). This is one reason among many that the regionals have become such a crappy place to be. This pressure to pay us less. But there are those who are willing to do it.

[CoBuilder]

Originally Posted by Matthew_Chidester

quick question on the gojets part..please no bashing i'm really lost on this one.

I've seen people bash gojets before and I've never seen what the story is with gojets.. can someone clue me on on why they're so bad? what is it? PFT? what makes them scum? I've also heard some mesa pilots talk about.. freedom jet or.. something like that, something happened in the past with that one. Wish there was a "we hate them because XYZ" on a website, that would help get a history of what has happened because I wasn't flying around when it did. (trying to educate myself here)

(i'd like to know because one of our ex-instructors I think got a job there..hate to apply somewhere down the road and be seen as scum)


back on topic, 2 of our instructors also went to ameriflight to build pic turbine once they get upgraded. They're also on the "avoiding the regionals" plan. Not a bad idea...only bad part is single pilot IFR (I think slightly more dangerous). I think it goes down to the question of quality of life and what works for you.

Hey you can search the old messages at flightinfo.com or ask there for a complete picture. They always talk about it!

[SFLAX]

I am involved in a lot of the ALPA stuff and there will be a change at Mesa, the pilot group is much smarter and different then the last group whom protected the guys with more then 10 years at mesa. These new guys are looking for a QOL change in next few years. Hell we have cass now, nobody thought that would happen.

[skyhawk39]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

I am involved in a lot of the ALPA stuff and there will be a change at Mesa, the pilot group is much smarter and different then the last group whom protected the guys with more then 10 years at mesa. These new guys are looking for a QOL change in next few years. Hell we have cass now, nobody thought that would happen.

Yeah...but unfortunately you've still got JO...

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

Lets look at a few things. Simple math using averages and 3 year captain pay.

I didn't want to go down that road, but comparing pay rates:

1) Means nothing without comparing work rules. How many mesa f/o's can credit 95+ hours while on reserve while flying <40 hrs? Oh, and they only get 8 days off/28 day cycle. Ouch.

2) With rates AFTER concessions means jack. Comair's rate is after a pretty sizeable pay cut. Hell, AWAC 5 year -200 CA's were making $75/hr prior to concessions. 2nd year FO's in the -200 were making $39/hr, $50/hr for the 86/88 seat 146, almost DOUBLE Mesa's CURRENT 90 seat rates WITHOUT CONCESSIONS! These concessions were taken to try and compete in part with mesa's bid for the united flying.

3) Of course, all of this pales in comparison to what the majors WERE paying for their smaller aircraft (DC-9, etc.). NWA's 77 seat DC-9 pay topped out at $150/hr. NONE of the regionals, IMO, have any place to talk...

I, for one, hope the major pilots can get THEIR flying, and their pay rates back.

[SFLAX]

We must compare rates after concessions, b/c those are the rates. We live in the now and then look towards the future. It sucks that wages went down, I am an airline pilot and plane on being one my whole life. Your comment about Mesa's bid is partically true, United started the bid issue, ACA said no. Just like they guy whom painted our house last month, not the lowest or the highest but gave us a good package for the price. I hope the majors do get some flying back and some pay, we all do. But I do see an end to this stuff. I agree 100% as to work rules, but why should someone get paid 95 hours for 40 hours of work. I get paid on my line about 87 to 90 hours a month. Yes the rules at mesa are not the best, but they will improve, the pilots at mesa, will not allow the next contract to be signed with out it I promise you that.

[Kingairer]

Fuzzy Math

[Baronman]

SFLAX-
Our frustration with Mesa is this, wages continue to go down with management using Mesa as a basis for pay grades. Additionally it is troubling for me to see 90 seat aircraft at a regional, I would much rather see those aircraft at a major with major pay rates and benefits. Luckily USAir recently agreed that the E190 would be flown by their pilots and not Mesa or Chitauqua.

Adding to what I said above....Mesa does not help when certain regionals are getting hit up for concessions. Management can always say that the cuts are still better than Mesa.

I hope you guys work hard for a good contract coming up.

[Dugie8]

We really have ourselves to partially blame for the lowballing going on. For years when it was contract time, pilots would stand up and thump their chests that we wanted such and such a percentage better than the best contract out there, now management is using the same mentality. I don't agree with either approach, but it is not a stretch to see how we caused some of this ourselves.

[mastermags]

So when is a regional not an airline.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by SFLAX

We must compare rates after concessions, b/c those are the rates. We live in the now and then look towards the future.

Exactly! That's what being union is all about. You're supposed to improve upon each contract that comes out. MESA guys are getting paid less with a contract that was signed after the other leading contracts. It didn't matter much to folks when mesa was a small feeder, but now with 180 a/c, 4 feed contracts, etc. they are having an impact on other peoples lives.

Just like they guy whom painted our house last month, not the lowest or the highest but gave us a good package for the price.

Is this a "good package for the price"?

Regional carrier Mesa leads USA in canceled flights

Mesa Airlines canceled the highest percentage of flights in January, the latest month that statistics are available from the federal Bureau of Transportation Statistics. The carrier, which operates regional flights for Delta, United and US Airways, scrubbed 4.2% of its scheduled flights for the month.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/0...al_carrie.html

I agree 100% as to work rules, but why should someone get paid 95 hours for 40 hours of work. I get paid on my line about 87 to 90 hours a month.

Good for you. I prefer to get paid for trips if the wx cancels the flight, or the a/c has mx issues, I get sent home WITH PAY. Duty rigs and trip rigs which keep us from working 14 hour duty days but getting paid for only 2 hours (that would be 7 hour min pay) etc. all go into what pilots credit.

[Diamnd15]

what about regionals like horzion and skywest, would it be possbile to make it a career with one of them?

[dcapilot]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Fuzzy Math

Awww, Kingairer...I thought it was Fuzzy math too, but then I realized that I am just a "nail salon queen...." guess you are too.... HAHAHA...oh man, sometimes I can't believe what i hear.

[CapnJim]

I still can't believe how mixed up people are about the regionals! Achtung alles: No esta Mesa senors y senoras!
Put another way: If you shove a feather up your ass and I work at ExpressJet till I get on with a major, we'll both be tickled sh'tless.

So if you're hearing a lot of noise about the regonals, do try and consider the source. And if you decide the regionals are for you, please, please, please do all the homework you can, study the company and mainline carrier, ask everyine every question you can think of (check my post in here for some good ones) and above all, remember this: friends don't let friends fly for Mesa.

[greaper007]

Mesa has a pretty good upgrade time right now though, don't they? What's the upgrade at express jets or american eagle, like 5 years? It seems like you take what you can get to better your life. If you might have a chance to move on to somewhere bigger why not take a quick upgrade and deal with the low pay and bad work rules.

[CapnJim]

Oh, lordy, here we go again. The long-ago dead, beaten to a pulp, #####-yourself-for-PIC debate...

And people, for god's sake, check out some past threads before you post stuff like that, wouldja please?

[Doug Taylor]

I'll add this one to the "Hot Topics" archive once it dies.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'll add this one to the "Hot Topics" archive once it dies.

God, but then all the mall goths will hang out in it.

[Doug Taylor]

And the 12 year olds witih "Dead Kennedy's" shirts on.

Perhaps I should call it 'The Beaten Horse'

[SFLAX]

The problem truely is that we all work under the same union under different contracts. The real solution is one contract for all the regionals. Then the mainline would have no choice. But this approach will only last until a Freedom or Gojets comes along. People do not realize why Mesa has what it has for this contract. 90% of you would not have jobs if Mesa ALPA did not stop Freedom, and everytime Gojets gets another plane, we all lose. At Mesa three years ago if we would not of taken the work rules cut (which did effect pay) I would not be where I am at now in my career. As for up grade in the ERJ about 18 months, Dash 8, if you have the time it is yours, CRJ 3 years. But most of you do not see the inside workings of Mesa or see the numbers each month. But honestly, most people need just realize that they just need to go to work go home and move on from this industry if you feel that the pay and benefits will not work for your life. Companies come and go and markets change. And if we did not have a senority system or alot of our out dated ways of labor and management ideals, this industry would be in the long run very good to work in.

[Chris_Ford]

Nah, then you'll have the PETA freaks and animal fetishists (Mr_Creepy ) hanging out in there.