Safety Pilot PIC

lowandslow · April 23rd, 2006, 23:51

Rumors are plentiful about logging Safety Pilot time. I did a breif search of the regs and am still unclear about this. While flying with two qualified pilots, one under the hood and the other acting as safety pilot (neither of which are instructors), can both pilots log PIC time? If not, which pilot logs PIC and can the other pilot log the time as anything worthwhile? Does time logged as safety pilot but not PIC count towards any minimums or ratings?

Any help would be great. I am trying to get through my part 61 instrument rating as efficently/least costly as possible.

Timbuff10 · April 24th, 2006, 00:23

Yes, one pilot under the hood, and one pilot acting as safety pilot, both can log PIC. Find a buddy to do this with and you will learn a lot.

Time logged as a SP is PIC time and should be logged as such. It does count toward mins and ratings.

I would be careful though, as many on here have said employers don't think too highly of it though.

meritflyer · April 24th, 2006, 00:35

The PNF may log second in command time if they wish

slushie · April 24th, 2006, 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

I would be careful though,

Safety Pilot ops are good learning flights. Just don't go overboard.

slushie · April 24th, 2006, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

The PNF may log second in command time if they wish

But that would just be silly.

88MPH · April 24th, 2006, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

The PNF may log second in command time if they wish

I was to assume from my interpretation of the FARs that a pilot couldn't log SIC time unless the plane was rated for dual pilots.

Or did I just miss the sarcasm? I'm having an off day!

Timbuff10 · April 24th, 2006, 01:12

I think you missed the sarcasm, I don't know where all those cool buttons are either.

I think there is a way where you can log SIC in a single pilot airplane but it has to be required by the company or something. For example some Citations are single pilot certified but many companies prefer to have two pilots. I am sure that guy is logging that time.

lowandslow · April 24th, 2006, 01:23

"Yes, one pilot under the hood, and one pilot acting as safety pilot, both can log PIC. Find a buddy to do this with and you will learn a lot. "

Can anybody tell me exactly where the FAR's say this?

slushie · April 24th, 2006, 01:26

there are a billion other (much better) threads about this...do a search.

aloft · April 24th, 2006, 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

I think you missed the sarcasm, I don't know where all those cool buttons are either.

I think there is a way where you can log SIC in a single pilot airplane but it has to be required by the company or something. For example some Citations are single pilot certified but many companies prefer to have two pilots. I am sure that guy is logging that time.

Tim...dude. I'm disappointed by your answer. You're mistaken, it's entirely legal to log SIC in even a C-152 under the right circumstance, now go find out what it is and why. (I'm picking on you cuz you're a CFI and are supposed to know everything!

)

Captain_Bob · April 24th, 2006, 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

Tim...dude. I'm disappointed by your answer. You're mistaken, it's entirely legal to log SIC in even a C-152 under the right circumstance, now go find out what it is and why. (I'm picking on you cuz you're a CFI and are supposed to know everything!

)

MidlifeFlyer · April 24th, 2006, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowandslow

"Yes, one pilot under the hood, and one pilot acting as safety pilot, both can log PIC. Find a buddy to do this with and you will learn a lot. "

Can anybody tell me exactly where the FAR's say this?

Here. Try my FAQ, "May a Safety Pilot Log PIC Time?"

http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#8

The FAR and FAA Legal opinions are referenced.

SteveC · April 24th, 2006, 11:37

Meritflyer, aloft, Captain_Bob, and MidlifeFlyer are all steering you in the right direction. The safety pilot can log either PIC or SIC. Midlife's FAQ give a good rundown of why this is so.

I think that the most important point is not that you can log either PIC or SIC, but that it might be really, really important that you have decided before the flight which you are going to do. Once you understand why you can log either way, and think through the ramifications of what both scenarios mean (especially if there is a problem or deviation or incident during the flight) you won't make that decision quite so lightly. This brings the "logging PIC" compared to "acting PIC" discussion full circle, and should help clarify the differences in your mind. If you have decided to "log PIC" as a safety pilot rather than SIC, then you have also decided to take on the full responsibilities of "acting PIC". Just keep that in mind when you look over at the guy that is going to be flying under the hood and think about whether or not you are willing to be responsible for his actions.

Remember that being an SIC safety pilot has different responsibilites than being a PIC safety pilot. If there is an inquiry because the pilot under the hood blew an altitude restriction or turned the wrong way and caused a "deal", the only way that you might be able to prove that you shouldn't be blamed for it as well is if you can show in log book that the previous flights with the same guy you were logging as SIC, not PIC. If you have a history of logging PIC while acting as safety pilot, you could be on the line for his screw-ups as well. I know....this is not a very likely problem. Isn't it still worth thinking through the possibilities though?

skydog · April 24th, 2006, 17:39

Just because the regs allow you to log PIC doesn't mean you should. There's more to Pilot in Command than just a column in a logbook. And in the grand scheme of things, is a few hours of safety pilot tirme really going to make a difference in the time or money spent?

aloft · April 24th, 2006, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by skydog

in the grand scheme of things, is a few hours of safety pilot tirme really going to make a difference in the time or money spent?

At anywhere from $90 - $300/hr (depending on what you're flying), you betcha.

kellwolf · April 24th, 2006, 20:24

In the eyes of ATP, yep. Think they're gonna let you do all that cross country time twice for the same price because it doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things?

MidlifeFlyer · April 24th, 2006, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by skydog

Just because the regs allow you to log PIC doesn't mean you should. There's more to Pilot in Command than just a column in a logbook. And in the grand scheme of things, is a few hours of safety pilot tirme really going to make a difference in the time or money spent?

Let's see. You get lucky. You're a relatively green CFI and offered that first cargo job because the guy who usually flies it is going on vacation. You just need to show that you're 135 VFR qualified, including that "500 hours of flight time, including at least 100 hours of cross-country flight time, at least 25 hours of which were at night."

Too bad. You're just 16 hours short. You never logged those flights when you and your buddy acted as each other's safety pilot because someone told you they were useless.

Timbuff10 · April 24th, 2006, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

you're a CFI and are supposed to know everything!

And now after reading Midlifeflyer's FAQ, I do know everything since that was the one and only area where I was lacking

Ok, no more questions now.

April 23rd, 2006, 23:51	#1
lowandslow Newbie Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 14	Safety Pilot PIC Rumors are plentiful about logging Safety Pilot time. I did a breif search of the regs and am still unclear about this. While flying with two qualified pilots, one under the hood and the other acting as safety pilot (neither of which are instructors), can both pilots log PIC time? If not, which pilot logs PIC and can the other pilot log the time as anything worthwhile? Does time logged as safety pilot but not PIC count towards any minimums or ratings? Any help would be great. I am trying to get through my part 61 instrument rating as efficently/least costly as possible.

April 24th, 2006, 00:23	#2
Timbuff10 Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Coloradan in Orange County, CA Posts: 3,235	Re: Safety Pilot PIC Yes, one pilot under the hood, and one pilot acting as safety pilot, both can log PIC. Find a buddy to do this with and you will learn a lot. Time logged as a SP is PIC time and should be logged as such. It does count toward mins and ratings. I would be careful though, as many on here have said employers don't think too highly of it though. __________________ My Photography My Airliners.net photos

April 24th, 2006, 00:35	#3
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 6,802	Re: Safety Pilot PIC The PNF may log second in command time if they wish __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

April 24th, 2006, 01:12	#7
Timbuff10 Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Coloradan in Orange County, CA Posts: 3,235	Re: Safety Pilot PIC I think you missed the sarcasm, I don't know where all those cool buttons are either. I think there is a way where you can log SIC in a single pilot airplane but it has to be required by the company or something. For example some Citations are single pilot certified but many companies prefer to have two pilots. I am sure that guy is logging that time. __________________ My Photography My Airliners.net photos

April 24th, 2006, 01:26	#9
slushie Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Vegas Posts: 2,195	Re: Safety Pilot PIC there are a billion other (much better) threads about this...do a search. __________________ Aviation BooksLushAviation.com code="jc05"

April 24th, 2006, 01:23	#8
lowandslow Newbie Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 14	Re: Safety Pilot PIC "Yes, one pilot under the hood, and one pilot acting as safety pilot, both can log PIC. Find a buddy to do this with and you will learn a lot. " Can anybody tell me exactly where the FAR's say this?

April 24th, 2006, 11:37	#13
SteveC Modulator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,788	Re: Safety Pilot PIC Meritflyer, aloft, Captain_Bob, and MidlifeFlyer are all steering you in the right direction. The safety pilot can log either PIC or SIC. Midlife's FAQ give a good rundown of why this is so. I think that the most important point is not that you can log either PIC or SIC, but that it might be really, really important that you have decided before the flight which you are going to do. Once you understand why you can log either way, and think through the ramifications of what both scenarios mean (especially if there is a problem or deviation or incident during the flight) you won't make that decision quite so lightly. This brings the "logging PIC" compared to "acting PIC" discussion full circle, and should help clarify the differences in your mind. If you have decided to "log PIC" as a safety pilot rather than SIC, then you have also decided to take on the full responsibilities of "acting PIC". Just keep that in mind when you look over at the guy that is going to be flying under the hood and think about whether or not you are willing to be responsible for his actions. Remember that being an SIC safety pilot has different responsibilites than being a PIC safety pilot. If there is an inquiry because the pilot under the hood blew an altitude restriction or turned the wrong way and caused a "deal", the only way that you might be able to prove that you shouldn't be blamed for it as well is if you can show in log book that the previous flights with the same guy you were logging as SIC, not PIC. If you have a history of logging PIC while acting as safety pilot, you could be on the line for his screw-ups as well. I know....this is not a very likely problem. Isn't it still worth thinking through the possibilities though? __________________ . If life gives you lemons, throw 'em into a quart of vodka. ~Red Green

April 24th, 2006, 17:39	#14
skydog Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 626	Re: Safety Pilot PIC Just because the regs allow you to log PIC doesn't mean you should. There's more to Pilot in Command than just a column in a logbook. And in the grand scheme of things, is a few hours of safety pilot tirme really going to make a difference in the time or money spent?

April 24th, 2006, 20:24	#16
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: Safety Pilot PIC In the eyes of ATP, yep. Think they're gonna let you do all that cross country time twice for the same price because it doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things? __________________ "I'm The Doctor, by the way. Run for your life!"

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