Buying a plane and instructing in it

meritflyer · April 20th, 2006, 00:21

Can you buy and instruct in a C172 under part 119 even if you are providing the airplane? How does that all work out?

subpilot · April 20th, 2006, 00:37

Yes you can. The plane must have all inspection, including the 100hrs. That is about it...go for it.

MidlifeFlyer · April 20th, 2006, 09:36

Yup.

Your biggest issue will be the cost of insurance. If yu want coverage, you will need a commercial policy. A normal aircraft owner's policy will not cover you when you give instruction for hire.

DE727UPS · April 20th, 2006, 10:55

Insurance is a big problem. I'd say, though, if you limited yourself to dual only IFR training, the risk of not having the proper insurance is acceptably small.

Tiger815 · April 21st, 2006, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Insurance is a big problem. I'd say, though, if you limited yourself to dual only IFR training, the risk of not having the proper insurance is acceptably small.

I'm not sure I get your argument. If you don't have a commercial policy, you are flying naked. If something happens and your student gets hurt, you have zero coverage.

DE727UPS · April 21st, 2006, 11:01

My argument is that it's an acceptable risk (for me) that nothing will happen that would involve a student getting hurt, and him suing me, as long as I'm at the controls. Renting a plane out to a 10 hour first solo student is a whole nother story.

Tiger815 · April 21st, 2006, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

My argument is that it's an acceptable risk (for me) that nothing will happen that would involve a student getting hurt, and him suing me, as long as I'm at the controls. Renting a plane out to a 10 hour first solo student is a whole nother story.

Why bother paying for any insurance at all then?

If you have a non-commecial policy coverage is going to be denied if the insurance company has any reason to look into your operations, like if you have a claim.

Sprint100 · April 21st, 2006, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiger815

Why bother paying for any insurance at all then?

If you have a non-commecial policy coverage is going to be denied if the insurance company has any reason to look into your operations, like if you have a claim.

He's banking on not having to file a claim!!!!!!!!!!. Plus, if he is PIC every time that plane goes up it really doesn't matter.

DE727UPS · April 21st, 2006, 13:01

"If you have a non-commecial policy coverage is going to be denied if the insurance company has any reason to look into your operations"

Not all of my "operations" would include commercial use and I see non-commercial insurance as a bargin while commerical insurance is an absolute ripoff.

As a side note, it's either AOPA or Avemco, I forget now, that let you instruct a named pilot with non-commercial coverage. How often you can add and subtract names was a grey area.

Tiger815 · April 21st, 2006, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprint100

He's banking on not having to file a claim!!!!!!!!!!. Plus, if he is PIC every time that plane goes up it really doesn't matter.

Wether the aircraft is to be used in for commecial operations is in the policy provisions based on what you told them when you applied for coverage. If you lie and say you are using the aircraft for pleasure and personal business use, but actually use it to conduct flight training for compensation, the insurance company has grounds to deny coverage. They will not care who was PIC. If its not a commercial policy, you are not covered for any operation for any form of hire or compensation and they could probably deny coverage even if your claim arose from a flight that wasn't commercial if they were to learn of how you were using the plane. It wouldn't be hard for an insurance investigator to learn what you were doing simply by asking around the airport, since it's hard to run an "undercover" flight school.

DE727UPS-Avemco is a direct carrier and could have they type exception you mention. AOPA is just like any other broker. I have policies from AIG and Global in front of me and they clearly prohibit any operation for hire. Finally you are correct. Commercial coverage is outrageous.

Sprint100 · April 21st, 2006, 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiger815

Wether the aircraft is to be used in for commecial operations is in the policy provisions based on what you told them when you applied for coverage. If you lie and say you are using the aircraft for pleasure and personal business use, but actually use it to conduct flight training for compensation, the insurance company has grounds to deny coverage. They will not care who was PIC. If its not a commercial policy, you are not covered for any operation for any form of hire or compensation and they could probably deny coverage even if your claim arose from a flight that wasn't commercial if they were to learn of how you were using the plane. It wouldn't be hard for an insurance investigator to learn what you were doing simply by asking around the airport, since it's hard to run an "undercover" flight school.

DE727UPS-Avemco is a direct carrier and could have they type exception you mention. AOPA is just like any other broker. I have policies from AIG and Global in front of me and they clearly prohibit any operation for hire. Finally you are correct. Commercial coverage is outrageous.

My badd, new knowledge to me

DE727UPS · April 21st, 2006, 23:43

Avemco it is. I was surprised that they would allow me to instruct a named pilot on still cover me on a non-commercial policy. Honestly, that's why I went with them was I saw it as a "progressive" attitude in non-commercial insurance. To allow the occasional CFI/owner to use his plane for instruction under limited circumstances. Very progressive.

MidlifeFlyer · April 22nd, 2006, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Avemco it is. I was surprised that they would allow me to instruct a named pilot on still cover me on a non-commercial policy. Honestly, that's why I went with them was I saw it as a "progressive" attitude in non-commercial insurance. To allow the occasional CFI/owner to use his plane for instruction under limited circumstances. Very progressive.

Are you sure that's wat it says? That it will cover a CFI who teaches a named pilot in the CFI's aircraft?

Can you quote the language?

DE727UPS · April 22nd, 2006, 00:43

That is what I not only believe it says, but when I called to confirm, was told it meant.

I can't quote the language until I finish my 757 Capt upgrade training and go home. Ask me again in a week or so....

Tiger815 · April 22nd, 2006, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

That is what I not only believe it says, but when I called to confirm, was told it meant.

I can't quote the language until I finish my 757 Capt upgrade training and go home. Ask me again in a week or so....

Thanks for the info and I'm going to look into it further. If that exemption would allow primary instruction, it would be a perfect opportunity my wife to finish up her private in our plane with me as her CFI.

I know its dangerous trying to teach someone you're that close to, but the benefits of her being a private pilot are worth some time in the doghouse. It would be so much easier for me to stay instrument current/proficent if I had a built in safety pilot! ;-)

shooter13 · April 22nd, 2006, 11:52

Tiger I would think you could do it. I know I have been quoted a policy for a student pilot on an aircraft so it must be doable, especially for family. I plan to teach my wife once I have my CFI.

MidlifeFlyer · April 22nd, 2006, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

That is what I not only believe it says, but when I called to confirm, was told it meant.

I can't quote the language until I finish my 757 Capt upgrade training and go home. Ask me again in a week or so....

Problem is that there is not one word in the insurance agreement that Avemco posts on its web site to even remotely suggest this. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It may be true and just isn't in the posted version of the policy. Avemco is one of the few companies that changed its policy to specifically allow a limited number of private rentals - that=is= in the posted policy. That's why I asked.

Don't believe the company agents. I know a guy that was had an incident. Three different agents and one adjuster all told him different things about his coverage, all of which were wrong.

MidlifeFlyer · April 22nd, 2006, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by shooter13

Tiger I would think you could do it. I know I have been quoted a policy for a student pilot on an aircraft so it must be doable, especially for family. I plan to teach my wife once I have my CFI.

Check your policy, but that is usually something you =can= do. The typical exclusion is for instruction =for hire= not for instruction generally. (I'm assuming your wife will not be paying you for the instruction)

Tiger815 · April 22nd, 2006, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Check your policy, but that is usually something you =can= do. The typical exclusion is for instruction =for hire= not for instruction generally. (I'm assuming your wife will not be paying you for the instruction)

It's doable, you just have to put them as a named pilot and the policy will cost a good deal more with a student on it.

I was thinking the Avemco deal wouldn't require the higher premium but after thinking about it it probably does have a higher cost than if you didn't have any student pilots named, but might still be way less than a commecial policy.

I plan to ask my agent about it next renewal cycle.

April 20th, 2006, 00:21	#1
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 6,802	Buying a plane and instructing in it Can you buy and instruct in a C172 under part 119 even if you are providing the airplane? How does that all work out? __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

April 20th, 2006, 00:37	#2
subpilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 766	Yes you can. The plane must have all inspection, including the 100hrs. That is about it...go for it. __________________ Together We Served "Helicopters don't actually fly. They just beat the air into submission." -Firebird2XC

April 20th, 2006, 09:36	#3
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,094	Yup. Your biggest issue will be the cost of insurance. If yu want coverage, you will need a commercial policy. A normal aircraft owner's policy will not cover you when you give instruction for hire. __________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray

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April 20th, 2006, 10:55	#4
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	Insurance is a big problem. I'd say, though, if you limited yourself to dual only IFR training, the risk of not having the proper insurance is acceptably small.

April 21st, 2006, 11:01	#6
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	My argument is that it's an acceptable risk (for me) that nothing will happen that would involve a student getting hurt, and him suing me, as long as I'm at the controls. Renting a plane out to a 10 hour first solo student is a whole nother story.

April 21st, 2006, 13:01	#9
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	"If you have a non-commecial policy coverage is going to be denied if the insurance company has any reason to look into your operations" Not all of my "operations" would include commercial use and I see non-commercial insurance as a bargin while commerical insurance is an absolute ripoff. As a side note, it's either AOPA or Avemco, I forget now, that let you instruct a named pilot with non-commercial coverage. How often you can add and subtract names was a grey area.

April 21st, 2006, 23:43	#12
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	Avemco it is. I was surprised that they would allow me to instruct a named pilot on still cover me on a non-commercial policy. Honestly, that's why I went with them was I saw it as a "progressive" attitude in non-commercial insurance. To allow the occasional CFI/owner to use his plane for instruction under limited circumstances. Very progressive.

April 22nd, 2006, 00:43	#14
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	That is what I not only believe it says, but when I called to confirm, was told it meant. I can't quote the language until I finish my 757 Capt upgrade training and go home. Ask me again in a week or so....

April 22nd, 2006, 11:52	#16
shooter13 Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,952	Tiger I would think you could do it. I know I have been quoted a policy for a student pilot on an aircraft so it must be doable, especially for family. I plan to teach my wife once I have my CFI.