I wasn;t quite certain about youz guyz... (PIC)

[slushie]

so I did some research.
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

Logging Pilot in Command (PIC) Time

One topic that invariably pops up whenever there is a gathering of pilots is the logging of pilot in command time. The much coveted PIC time has been controversial subject and can be very confusing. After reading this, you may be amazed to find that there are many different ways to log PIC!
Before we get started, we must define Pilot In Command (PIC). The PIC is by Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR), responsible for the safe operation of the flight (FAR 1.1,91.3). At any given time, there can only be one PIC on a flight, no matter how many pilots are on board the aircraft. To legally act as PIC, the pilot must have a current medical certificate and have all required endorsements, ratings, and recency of experience for the type of aircraft being flown and the flight conditions under which the flight is conducted (FAR 61.3, 61.31, 61.56, 61.57). Before a flight is initiated, an agreement should be made to determine who is to be acting as PIC.
Unlike driving cars, the PIC may allow anyone, including a non-pilot, a pilot who may not legally act as pilot in command, or another fully qualified pilot fly the airplane, or be "sole manipulator of the controls" during the flight. The PIC is not required to sit in the left pilot seat. Regardless of where the PIC is sitting in the airplane or who is manipulating the controls, the PIC is ultimately responsible and accountable for the safety and operation of the flight.
A pilot may log PIC time when he/she is the sole occupant of the aircraft; is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; or is acting as PIC where more than one pilot is required (FAR 1.1,61.51 [e]). The Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) provide several situations (see scenarios listed below) where two or more pilots may log PIC time, even though there can only be one pilot acting as PIC.
Why do the FARs allow more than one pilot to log PIC time when there can only be one PIC on a given flight? To help pilots build PIC time toward the furtherance of other certificates and ratings. This is also helpful in fulfilling insurance requirements for PIC time.
A pilot, whether acting as PIC or not, may log PIC time any time in which he/she is sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he/she is rated (FAR 61.51). This is true regardless of weather conditions, whether VFR or IFR, simulated or actual.
"Rated," by FAA interpretation, means that the pilot has the appropriate category, class, and type (if required) privileges on his/her pilot certificate for the aircraft being operated. Period. Note that "rated" does not require the pilot to have an instrument rating, a current medical, recency of experience, biennial flight review or required endorsements (such as tailwheel or high performance).
For example, if you are a non-instrument rated, private pilot with airplane, single engine land privileges, you would be considered appropriately "rated" to log PIC time anytime (in VFR or IFR conditions) you are sole manipulator of the controls of any (high performance or tailwheel) single engine airplane configured for takeoff and landing on land (unless, of course the airplane required a specific type rating, which is required for jet aircraft and aircraft with gross weights over 12,500 lbs). Remember, although a pilot may log flight time as PIC under this provision, there must still be someone in the aircraft who is legally acting as PIC.
Let's say you want to get an endorsement to fly tailwheel airplanes or high performance aircraft. If you are already rated for that aircraft, you may log PIC time for all instruction time that you are sole manipulator of the controls. To illustrate, if you have private pilot certificate, airplane single engine land, and you wish to receive instruction for a tailwheel endorsement in a single engine, tailwheel aircraft, you may log the instruction time in which you are sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time.
The same holds true for instrument instruction. If you are receiving instrument instruction in an aircraft for which you are rated, the time you spend as sole manipulator of the controls is loggable as PIC, whether you are in actual or simulated instrument conditions.
When practicing flying in simulated instrument conditions with a safety pilot, both the pilot flying the aircraft by reference to instruments and the safety pilot may log PIC time if the safety pilot is acting as PIC. As long as the pilot flying the aircraft is rated for the aircraft being flown, he/she may log this time as PIC because he/she is sole manipulator of the controls (FAR 61.51). Because the pilot flying will be wearing a view limiting device, a safety pilot will be a required crewmember on board (FAR 91.109). The safety pilot may log as PIC any flight time for which he/she is acting PIC in an operation requiring more than one pilot crewmember (FAR 61.51).
A recreational pilot may not act as safety pilot since a recreational pilot may not act as a required pilot flight crewmember in an operation requiring more than one pilot (FAR 61.101).
To act as a safety pilot, a current medical certificate is required because a safety pilot will be acting as a required pilot crewmember, which requires a current medical certificate (FAR 61.3).
We have provided some scenarios to illustrate the logging of PIC time with regard to safety pilots; in both cases, Pilot A will be the pilot flying the aircraft by reference to instruments under the hood or in actual instrument conditions, and Pilot B will be the safety pilot and/or acting as PIC:
Scenario #1

Pilot A wants to accompany Pilot B on a cross country flight in a single engine, high performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the airplane, but does not have a current medical, high performance endorsement, or current biennial flight review. Pilot A will be practicing simulated instrument flying, wearing a view limited device and will be sole manipulator of the controls during the enroute portion of the flight. Pilot B meets all the requirements to be PIC and has agreed to be PIC and safety pilot during the flight.
Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC time and simulated instrument time, Pilot B may log PIC time, but not instrument time, since he/she is not operating the aircraft by reference to instruments (FAR 61.51).
Scenario #2

Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B on a cross country flight in a single engine, high performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the aircraft, but is not instrument rated or endorsed to fly high performance aircraft, and does not have a current medical certificate or biennial flight review. Pilot A will be flying by reference to instruments during actual instrument conditions. Pilot B is legal to act as PIC and has agreed to be the PIC.
Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC and actual instrument time (although Pilot A should be prepared to explain to an FAA inspector why PIC time was logged while in actual instrument conditions, when he/she was not instrument rated). Pilot B can not log PIC as he/she is not the sole manipulator of the flight controls, and can not log instrument time since he/she was not flying the aircraft by reference to instruments (Far 61.51).
Scenario #3

Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B for the purpose of practicing instrument flying in a high performance aircraft. Pilot A may legally act as PIC and has agreed to act as PIC. Pilot A will be wearing a view limiting device and will be flying by reference to instruments. Pilot B is rated in the aircraft, has a current medical certificate, but is not instrument rated, endorsed to fly high performance airplanes, or have a current biennial flight review. Pilot B has agreed to be the safety pilot for the flight.
Pilot A may log PIC and simulated instrument time. Pilot B may log Second In Command (SIC) time. Pilot A is assuming PIC responsibilities and may log PIC. Pilot B is a crewmember where more than one pilot is required and may log SIC (FAR 61.51). Again, because Pilot B is a required crewmember, he/she will need a current medical certificate (FAR 61.3).
Flight instructors may log any flight time as PIC whenever they are providing flight instruction, whether or not they are acting as PIC (FAR 61.51). This mainly applies to FAR Part 91 operations! An instructor may not give flight instruction during an FAR 135 or 121 operation unless he/she is a designated flight instructor as stated in the carrier's approved operations manual.
Another popular question that arises in discussion is whether or not a student pilot may log Pilot In Command time. As per FAR 61.51 (e)(4). A student pilot may log PIC when they are the sole occupant of the aircraft and have a current solo flight endorsement. This is a part of the August 4, Part 61 Rewrite and is a change from past regulations.
What happens when a student pilot is taking a checkride for his/her private or recreational pilot certificate, or a pilot is upgrading to a higher rating or privilege? By FAR 61.47 the examiner is not PIC. The student pilot or pilot at this time is now considered a flight test applicant, and may log the flight evaluation as PIC, whether, or not he/she passes.
A special note to "time builder": although the FAA provides several means to log PIC time, PIC time represents flying experience and sound decision making ability. Commercial employers will not be impressed with hundreds of hours logged as PIC where the pilot was only acting as PIC and not actually flying.
This document has been prepared form various reference to FARs and letters of interpretation from the FAA.

Updated Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:40:28 PM

[mtsu_av8er]

Are you sure about us now?

[slushie]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Are you sure about us now?

Sure enough to make an error correction entry in my logbook.

[MidlifeFlyer]

What makes you think AOPA is right?

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

What makes you think AOPA is right?

They've NEVER been wrong!!

[slushie]

they were convincing. :P

[awacs94]

Thats way too much reading!!!!

[AngelFuree]

Hehe, this issue has always confused me...so does that mean that once you have your private pilot's license you can log PIC time anytime you're sole manipulator of the controls during flight instruction? That would be ridiculous because if such is the case, then everyone's doing everything wrong around here. I'm at the end of my multi course, finished instrument and commercial course already, and have only logged around 35 hours of PIC time. Total time around 170.
Excuse my ignorance, please do help.

[TaterSalad]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Hehe, this issue has always confused me...so does that mean that once you have your private pilot's license you can log PIC time anytime you're sole manipulator of the controls during flight instruction? That would be ridiculous because if such is the case, then everyone's doing everything wrong around here. I'm at the end of my multi course, finished instrument and commercial course already, and have only logged around 35 hours of PIC time. Total time around 170.
Excuse my ignorance, please do help.

Well, all the training you did in a single-engine plane, you can log as PIC as well as dual received after you got your PP-ASEL. You won't be able to log multi time as PIC, until you have your PP-AMEL (or Commercial AMEL).

[mtsu_av8er]

Angel, go back and fix your logbook. If you were a private pilot and you were flying a single engine aircraft, it's PIC.

[AngelFuree]

Thank you both gentlemen. Sadly, every instructor I've had at UND has never corrected my error in not making the correct entries. I'm sure almost every student here is missing these too. Thanks again!

[mastermags]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Thank you both gentlemen. Sadly, every instructor I've had at UND has never corrected my error in not making the correct entries. I'm sure almost every student here is missing these too. Thanks again!

They could probably care less how much PIC time you have logged. As long as its going in their logbook.

[slushie]

I corrected by adding 14.6 hours PIC

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Thank you both gentlemen. Sadly, every instructor I've had at UND has never corrected my error in not making the correct entries. I'm sure almost every student here is missing these too. Thanks again!

It only amounted to an extra 60 hours or so for me, so I didn't bother. Make sure not to log the whole time as PIC because you know you weren't always at the controls during demonstrations. If you're going to do it, minus .1 from each flight and log that time as PIC.

You can log whatever you want in your own logbook. And as a UND basher that you are, what do you think we are told to do?

[E_Dawg]

Subtracting 0.1 pic from each 'dual' flight is pretty anal and probably not expected of you from either the faa or anyone you might interview with...

[slushie]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

you know you weren't always at the controls during demonstrations.

Did you read the first post?

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

Subtracting 0.1 pic from each 'dual' flight is pretty anal and probably not expected of you from either the faa or anyone you might interview with...

Actually, I know a couple DE's and specific FAA personnel that have had a problem with this. It came into play with 15 hours of PIC required to take the MEI checkride. The DE knows the MEI applicant isn't always at the controls during a flight.

Do I think you should have to minus .1, no. But if someone were to say a problem could arise in the future , then I'd log it minus .1, especially if it were less than 5 hours of PIC.

If you want to talk about anal, adding all that PIC into the logbook when I know that 60 hours won't make a difference. 60 tt maybe, but not PIC.

[slushie]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

Actually, I know a couple DE's and specific FAA personnel that have had a problem with this. It came into play with 15 hours of PIC required to take the MEI checkride. The DE knows the MEI applicant isn't always at the controls during a flight.

This doesn't apply. the topic considers a person qualified in Category and Class.

[TaterSalad]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

Actually, I know a couple DE's and specific FAA personnel that have had a problem with this. It came into play with 15 hours of PIC required to take the MEI checkride. The DE knows the MEI applicant isn't always at the controls during a flight.

Do I think you should have to minus .1, no. But if someone were to say a problem could arise in the future , then I'd log it minus .1, especially if it were less than 5 hours of PIC.

If you want to talk about anal, adding all that PIC into the logbook when I know that 60 hours won't make a difference. 60 tt maybe, but not PIC.

Later on, you may find that 60 PIC is more important than 60 TT (remember, you can log TT even when you're not PIC, it's easier to come by). There are a lot of jobs where they want a specific amount of PIC, and that 60 hrs is going to be expensive to replace.

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by TaterSalad

Later on, you may find that 60 PIC is more important than 60 TT (remember, you can log TT even when you're not PIC, it's easier to come by). There are a lot of jobs where they want a specific amount of PIC, and that 60 hrs is going to be expensive to replace.

Have you seen any job postings lately? All require a total time number, most require a PIC number, and there are all sorts of other requirements.

In pretty much everyone I've seen, the total time was 2.5 times the required PIC time. I'm sorry, but if I have the total time, I know I'll have the PIC.

This is what I'd do, others may have a different story and need that extra 60 hours of PIC. I don't plan on going airline and being an FO for a decade. I'm aiming for a co-captain somewhere someday.