Delta Pilots Vote to Authorize Strike by ~95%

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"who knows what a bad case of the bird flu would do to you guys as well"

You're assuming I give a crap...

Yes...I suppose I assumed you did.

[CapnJim]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

Amen.

And the threats are everywhere anymore...and it's making the job very difficult to enjoy. Of course, diabetes, an erratic EKG, a terrorist attack, a new LCC start up flying 757's for $25 per hour could strike any of us tomorrow...and any of these would be as bad or worse than a strike.

The profession used to hold small assurances against some of the above...such as long term disability if you couldn't fly...i.e. diabetes diagnosis at age 35...you receive 65% of your pay until age 60...then a full retirement. This allowed the medical risk to be managed for a professional pilot. Now...no disability at all...unless you meet the SS definition of disabled...which pretty much means you are a vegetable. This chances of qualifying for a Class 1 medical all the way to age 60 or beyond is not extremely high. This is why scope is so important. It's not just the airplanes...it's benefits such as above that are being eliminated from the profession as the majors lose their flying to smaller outfits. Most guys probably don't even realize the magnitude of benefits the profession has lost thru the lost flying at the majors.

Since 9/11 most guys have come to the realization that something dramatic could occur at any moment...eliminating what's left of their profession...and driving guys to new careers that are profitable, challenging and enjoying, if not exponentially more secure.

I never thought I'd envy a freight driver (having been one myself I know how hard it is) but you've got about the last safe haven in the industry. But then again, who knows what a bad case of the bird flu would do to you guys as well?

Just when I thought this thread was spiraling into the literary sepia being spewed by the high-school a.net trolls, a beacon of hope.
Perfect post!

[JohnGalt]

Unions aren't perfect but I shudder to think what my job would be like without one. Or this career, for that matter.

One more quote, and then I'll jump in...

I'll make this simple. Do you fly a line? Do you work for an airline in any capacity?

If the answer is no, then you are taking out of the same place your digested food departs your body. You can throw theroetical BS around all day and all it's gonna do is get the walls brown.

Talk to me after you've done your 6th leg at the end of your SCHEDULED 15 hour duty day and have a 4am show the next morning.

If I have no children, does that forbid me from ever discussing about parents and parenting?
If I have no family, does that forbid me from ever discussing about family issues?
If I was never faced with a death threat,does that forbid from ever discussing about death threats?
If I never been in France/Germany/Russia does that forbid me from me from ever discussing about these places?

You get my point. The answer is NO. It is asinine to hear some say "You never experienced XYZ, therefore you can't possibly give an opinion on XYZ!!!" This whole thread is based how some management seems to screw up a lot. And how they are evil greedy bastards who make lots of mistakes. So tell me this? If I can't comment on a pilots job because I never flew professionaly, why wont the same standard apply to any of you guys? Why can't I forbid you from talking about management and how they operate? Your argument holds no water man.

Not only does it hold no credibility but you are missing one *KEY* factor. Everyone, go re-read the two quoted texts above. And you will notice something. Something very subtle is hidin in the message. Can you guess what it is? Come on? Take a stab at it? Yeah, thats right.. Yep, it's CHOICE. It is your choice. It is your free-unrestricted-path in life. You choose to make that choice. No one else. You have to deal with the problems that follow your choice. My father has always said to me that life is hard, and never evenly devided. You will face very tough decisions and tough times in life. You make the choice, and you will have to deal with the choice you make.

One person, might decide to become an artist. And starve or become the next picasso. Another person might pursue a life in marine biology. Another might want to become a teacher, and be faced with a career of making 37k yearly with more work you take home. My answer? It is your choice. You know the risks, if you don't you should to the research. Most if not all of you knew, that the job would be tough, especially the first couple of years. Most of you knew that it would cost you an arm and a leg to get through your training. And your soul just so you can get the position in a regional airline. But it was the choice you made. Deal with the results.

If you love flying soo much, that you are willing to sacrifice soo much, than expect to deal with these things. Expect to be hungery at times, or out of work. Expect to have long trips and being gone from home. Don't tell me how "I have kids to feed, and bills to pay." God, I have those things too. Yet, I take responsiblity for the choices I make in life along with my career.

You probably did expect a paycheck in the area of 100k a year or more after several years. But now, the business is failing. And you are barely making ends meet. Who's fault is that? Noones but your own. If you expect to be in the same career or job for the rest of your life, you are only kidding yourself. Things come and go, brace yourself. Things are in constant change. Remember the quote "Nothing is constant except change?" It doesn't take a idiot to know that sooner or later, your line of work will die, or evolve into something else. Pilots might be replaced by teleportation devices. Or underground subway systems that travel at 2-3-or even 400 miles an hour... at a cheaper rate, and possibly carrying 2 or 3 times more passengers. Everything is a possibility.

You have to stick with the choices you make. You can't blame others for it. Look at Doug, I can bet that he already has an idea for a home business. I bet that not only does he have idea, but he has put in the time and effort into research AND possible development of his business. I can also bet that Doug has an emergency fund incase something happens at his air line. He isn't sitting around moping and bitching about the state of the airline business. He might be, but he is also preparing for the worst scenerio.

[Bigey]

How about corporate? That's still a safe haven no?

Thank god, i know some people in the corporate world. Good family friend!

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

But now, the business is failing. And you are barely making ends meet. Who's fault is that? Noones but your own.

You know, you've talked out of your ass a lot, but this one takes the cake.

Yeah, it's the employee's fault. It's the fault of the guys who show up, do their job, do it well, and then go home. They don't pick the pricing system. They don't pick the route structure. All they do is fly the airplanes where they are told to fly them, and they do this day in day out safely.

Yeah, they're to blame for everything.

If you're smoking crack they are. Or if you've gotten the frontal lobotomy that seems to be required to work in corporate American management these days.

Everyone talks about the success of Southwest. Know what one of the things they seem to have which so many other airlines don't have is? An attitude from management that you do not treat your employees like crap.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

If I have no children, does that forbid me from ever discussing about parents and parenting?

Actually, yeah. I don't know jack about being a parent so I generally reserve comment on it except when it interferes with my beer and hot wing's at BW3.You have to stick with the choices you make. You can't blame others for it. Look at Doug, I can bet that he already has an idea for a home business. I bet that not only does he have idea, but he has put in the time and effort into research AND possible development of his business. I can also bet that Doug has an emergency fund incase something happens at his air line. He isn't sitting around moping and bitching about the state of the airline business. He might be, but he is also preparing for the worst scenerio.

Nah, I can speak for myself. It's one of my pet peeves when people assume stuff when I'm right here with the ability to answer.

Actually, my business plans and personal finances are not on public display for consumption nor or they related to anything going on within the airline business.

It's a drag going to work. It'd be a drag going to work if I was a skydiving porn star too! Life isn't about showing up to work monday thru friday, 10 hours a day and hoping to build a nest egg for retirement.

Life isn't about working you fingers to the bone that's going to spit you out broken, half-neurotic and standing in line at Luby's for the chopped liver special. That's not a barb thrown at the airlines, that's a barb thrown at corporate America and what it's become.

Was it the airline business that caused that shift in mentality?

Not at all.

The change in philosophy came from having my father die right after he retired, watching Kristie's mom die of cancer before she was 50 and watching my brother-in-law die of cancer at 23.

All of them had 'plans for the future'. All had focused on jobs, what they were going to do 'one day' and none of it happened.

So I decided that what's important isn't some job, it's about living life. It's about pursuing a world where if I, in fact, die at 40, I'd die with a smile on my face not having worried about things that I never had a chance to do.

Keep in mind, I'm named after my uncle, Douglas Lee Taylor I, who died at 35.

I luv ya like my brotha from anotha motha John_Galt, but I think I was a pretty rotten example to use as part of some economic philosophy you're trying to argue with everyone else here.

My life experiences aren't a "negative", but it was a kick in the ass to me to experience life as it happens, rather than some unattainable plan of doing it all later. Life isn't "woo hoo! I got a promotion at work!" life is, in my opinion, much deeper, far sweeter and a hell of a fun ride if you just live it as it's happening. Dance in public, sing to your wife, crack inappropriate jokes in front of kindergarteners -- it happens quick. Ya better enjoy it!

The business decisions that I make aren't a backup to an airline career at all. They're working towards me waking up one day and saying "You know what, I'm going to go to Einstein's bagel, take a book and I'm going to spend all freaking morning enjoying that cup of coffee and enjoy my God-given freedom" and have no one call me to say "Are you going to show up to work today? Oh, and about those TPS reports..."

"Today IS the 'good old days'"

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by tonyw

You know, you've talked out of your ass a lot, but this one takes the cake.

Yeah, it's the employee's fault. It's the fault of the guys who show up, do their job, do it well, and then go home. They don't pick the pricing system. They don't pick the route structure. All they do is fly the airplanes where they are told to fly them, and they do this day in day out safely.

Yeah, they're to blame for everything.

If you're smoking crack they are. Or if you've gotten the frontal lobotomy that seems to be required to work in corporate American management these days.

Everyone talks about the success of Southwest. Know what one of the things they seem to have which so many other airlines don't have is? An attitude from management that you do not treat your employees like crap.

Tony, I don't think he's saying what you think he's saying...

look at it again - away and outside the "management" box..

But now, the business is failing. And you are barely making ends meet. Who's fault is that? Noones but your own.

here's my interpretation of what he's saying... he's not saying that it's your fault the business is failing.. but it's your fault for not doing something about it (outside of said business) - ie: get a home business, get a 2nd job, get a new career, do what needs to be done to "make ends meet"... that's my interpretation of what JG is saying.

it's not an easy thing to do, but you see people doing it all the time now a days.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Bigey

How about corporate? That's still a safe haven no?

Thank god, i know some people in the corporate world. Good family friend!

Sorry, Bigey, but corporate is not, and never was, a safe haven. Some of the best jobs in great flight departments have disappeared fast enough to make your head spin when the corporate bottom line went just a little bit sour. Corporations, in general, are very sensitive about their flight departments because they are considered to be "fat cat perks" by the general public. This makes the flight department very vulnerable when the finances hit even a pebble in the road, much less rocks or stones.

Airlines have to fail completely for their "flight departments" to go away. Corporations just have to have a bad year or two.

Now, to put a little bit of sunshine back into this discussion, it is relatively rare that these bad things happen. And if they do happen, corporate pilots usually have more lateral movement ability when compared to airlines. If your airline fails and you have to start over you will be starting over again at the bottom. If you are a corporate pilot, though, you should be able to move into a similar level position with similar pay scale, assuming that you are lucky enough to find an opening somewhere (network, network, network!).

All aviation jobs have compromises inherent in them. If there were a perfect job, that's where everyone would be headed.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by Kristie

here's my interpretation of what he's saying... he's not saying that it's your fault the business is failing.. but it's your fault for not doing something about it (outside of said business) - ie: get a home business, get a 2nd job, get a new career, do what needs to be done to "make ends meet"... that's my interpretation of what JG is saying.

If that is the case, then I apologize to him. But I was reading, hey, it's your fault the business is falling to pieces. That, of course, is total and complete doggy poop!

[Sprint100]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Nah, I can speak for myself. It's one of my pet peeves when people assume stuff when I'm right here with the ability to answer.

Actually, my business plans and personal finances are not on public display for consumption nor or they related to anything going on within the airline business.

It's a drag going to work. It'd be a drag going to work if I was a skydiving porn star too! Life isn't about showing up to work monday thru friday, 10 hours a day and hoping to build a nest egg for retirement.

Life isn't about working you fingers to the bone that's going to spit you out broken, half-neurotic and standing in line at Luby's for the chopped liver special. That's not a barb thrown at the airlines, that's a barb thrown at corporate America and what it's become.

Was it the airline business that caused that shift in mentality?

Not at all.

The change in philosophy came from having my father die right after he retired, watching Kristie's mom die of cancer before she was 50 and watching my brother-in-law die of cancer at 23.

All of them had 'plans for the future'. All had focused on jobs, what they were going to do 'one day' and none of it happened.

So I decided that what's important isn't some job, it's about living life. It's about pursuing a world where if I, in fact, die at 40, I'd die with a smile on my face not having worried about things that I never had a chance to do.

Keep in mind, I'm named after my uncle, Douglas Lee Taylor I, who died at 35.

I luv ya like my brotha from anotha motha John_Galt, but I think I was a pretty rotten example to use as part of some economic philosophy you're trying to argue with everyone else here.

My life experiences aren't a "negative", but it was a kick in the ass to me to experience life as it happens, rather than some attainable plan of doing it all later. Life isn't "woo hoo! I got a promotion at work!" life is, in my opinion, much deeper, far sweeter and a hell of a fun ride if you just live it as it's happening. Dance in public, sing to your wife, crack inappropriate jokes in front of kindergarteners -- it happens quick. Ya better enjoy it!

The business decisions that I make aren't a backup to an airline career at all. They're working towards me waking up one day and saying "You know what, I'm going to go to Einstein's bagel, take a book and I'm going to spend all freaking morning enjoying that cup of coffee and enjoy my God-given freedom" and have no one call me to say "Are you going to show up to work today? Oh, and about those TPS reports..."

"Today IS the 'good old days'"

Let's do a poll in two weeks to see how many quit because of that last paragraph
That was a very good post!!!!!!!!!!

[CapnJim]

John-
I understand your frustration with jc-ers that eschew an otherwise sound argument on basis of personal experience. At best, it's an incomplete response. At worst, it's a cop-out for someone unable to respond in the first place. And, as always, the best defense against it is soundness of logic and economy of words.
That's not to say, however, that the experience argument dosen't have it's place: If a persons lack of experience clearly paints the argument as callow, didactic or gratuitously inflammatory, i.e. "Unions are bad for the airlines", then temptation on the person responding is to simply disregard the statment out of hand, particularly if the opinion is unpopular or obscure, e.g. "Congratulations, you're a retard." Experience, therefore, is the garlic of an argument. Used sparingly, it adds persuasive richness and depth to a well-balanced argument. As a main course, it just sucks ass.

Hey tony!!
had to chime in on this one:

Originally Posted by tonyw

Everyone talks about the success of Southwest. Know what one of the things they seem to have which so many other airlines don't have is? An attitude from management that you do not treat your employees like crap.

HELLS YES! Thank god I'm not the only on seeing this on the horizon. I hate corporate buzz words, but I really think this concept deserves the appelation paradigm shift. The 80's business model of "greed works" is rapidly becoming outmoded. Competition has become more fierce than ever; the "bottom line" viewpoint has become relegated to a survival strategy, not a growth strategy. Corporations are looking for an edge, and more and more that edge is being realized by compainies that realize the real "bottom line" is the front line. I could draw paralells to the way wars were waged by Norman Swartzkopf vs. Robert McNamara, but you get the idea...
More later!

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

HELLS YES! Thank god I'm not the only on seeing this on the horizon. I hate corporate buzz words, but I really think this concept deserves the appelation paradigm shift. The 80's business model of "greed works" is rapidly becoming outmoded.

I may have posted this earlier, but there's a little story I'm going to tell that speaks volumes about the Southwest attitude.

I was talking to one of the people that puts together training programs for FAs at a trade show. We got to talking about Airline and the show that features the Frontier FA training.

Anyway, I've never seen the show, but apparently, there was a scene where the trainer for Frontier says look to your left and look to your right. One of you will not make it to graduation.

The Southwest trainer said that is not the Southwest way and it would never happen there. She said that after that came out, they made a point of telling their FA classes that were going through training that Southwest would do everything they could to make sure they passed their training. She said they told the classes Southwest wanted everyone to graduate and get their wings.

Now, from my viewpoint on the outside, Southwest has it right here. It costs money to recruit and train people, even if they wash out. And to try to keep every single person you recruit and to work with them to make sure they pass their training makes sense from a dollars and cents standpoint and from an employee loyalty and morale standpoint as well.

[CapnJim]

Bingo.
There are two general types of employees: ones with good work ethic, and ones with, well... bad.
If you're a company who compensates their employees at the bare minimum that will keep them from quitting, and even then treat them as disposable, the good ones will give you the bare minimum to keep their jobs, and the bad ones, well, better lock the supply cabinet. Either way, you just break even, or you come out behind. The bad ones will see to that personally.
On the other hand, if you lead the industry in compensation, make morale a priority, and treat your employees as invaluable, the good ones will blossom, shine, and then you get all the myriad "little things", the extras done that really make a company successful. And you get it for free. The bad ones will still suck- but they're no fools. They know a good thing when they have it. So you still get an honest days work out of them, and if you catch them raiding the supply closet, well, then, they should have known better. Lotsa luck. You still come out ahead-- in come cases, way ahead. That's the edge I was talking about.
Lotsa luck, again, trying to convince the smooth-haired 80's vintage execs that such is the case. It's just not one of those things that can be shown in numbers (we invested X in morale and compensation, we should see Y return by the next quarter...) or encapsulated in a soulless mission statement (...we therefore pledge to treat our employees like human beings, and not human resources, that our shareholders may share the blessed fruits of magnanimousness...). It's a culture- the corporate equivalent of the 'right stuff' or a 'high-preference trait' for you Darwinists out there. You can't seminar it; you can't learn it over a latte in the business section of Barnes and Noble. Either you know how to inspire people, or you don't. If you don't, survive while you can, bottom-liners. If you do, welcome to the 21st centuries business model!

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Bigey

How about corporate? That's still a safe haven no?

Not really. I had a brief job flying corporate. Basically, when the company starts having problems or gets acquired, airplanes are fat cash cows to liquidate.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

. . .[post cut out for length] . . .

"Today IS the 'good old days'"

Right on!! My favorite JC.com post I've read to date!

[CapnJim]

I've always figured the airlines were a barometer industry. How well were doing reflects largely on how well the rest of industrialized America is doing.

I sure as hell don't want to be in a place where flying is my only source of income or retirement.

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

If I have no children, does that forbid me from ever discussing about parents and parenting?

No, but it would prevent you from having to eat your words when you become a parent and learn better.






I was the smartest parent in the world until I actually became one, and then I realized there was more to it than met the eye.



Now that I have experience in that field, I believe my opinions on the matter are somewhat more credible. If one desires to be taken seriously, it might be wise to confine himself to those topics about which he actually knows.




.

[JohnGalt]

Thanks Kristie! That WAS what I meant.

I know it is hard. Last year, around february, I was going to school and had a job. I quickly found myself stuck. How? All the bills piling up. No, not credit card bills, but house bills. Car bills, food bills. So I got 2 other jobs. I was working between 60-75 hours a week, plus about 16-18 credit hours. I got my problem fixed, and I went as far as getting a student loan to cover my expense of living while I can go to school. But that loan only covers so much. I still have a job, and work between 30-40 hours a week and go to school with 12 credit hours. I have this paranoid thought. If I lose my job, I'm going to be out in the street. So you know what I did? I started saving more. I now have 6 months worth of expenses saved up. No credit card debt, other than the student loan. If I get fired, I have enough time to either kick start a small business to take me through the years in college, or I have the 6 months to look for a better job. Either way, I have my bases covered.

In December, I wanted something cool. I didn't have the money. So I took another job to get me the money. I didn't complain how little I get at my current job. And I didn't complain that I have to work an extra shift. If I want a nice cozy life style, with Cable internet, and a warm apartment, I need to work just a little more to achieve that. Nothing wrong with it.

[EricPalmer]

Originally Posted by Sprint100

That was a very good post!!!!!!!!!!

Agree. Not even in the industry and that was very excellent by D. T.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Don't cross your fingers for me, I appreciate it, but I'm a lot more than just a pilot.

Delta goes away, so be it, it's not my choice but if they're going to trash a 70 year old company over what amounts to a few weeks of revenue, there's nothing I can do so I don't worry about it.

If the big boat sinks, I'll do something else. Being an airline pilot is a fun job, but it's by no means my life nor do I define myself by it. I did back in my regional days, but I had a lot of focus but as I matured, I broadened my interests greatly and it became a fun way to make money and a way to travel cheaply to Europe to explore.

Not that I'm some Joan of Arc on a religious quest that I MUST fly airplanes so I have to protect that ability by all costs.

Umm, no. Besides, I still have my private!

I put a lot into the performance of my job, but if I'm not going to be paid appropriately or treated professionally because the $1000/hr consultants think that our skills are valueless, well, later skater!.

If they force a strike, we strike and the company goes away, well, wasn't my fault! The sun will rise, I'll play 'house dad' and build my home business and stay off the 'gotta be an employee'-grid because being an employee ain't where it's at in the new American economy.

The company knew the risk when they started the whole game.

I am glad to see that you have such a "its a not a big deal" attitude about Delta going under if it should happen. You can keep you at-home business and probably be okay. But, what about the other thousands of employees? What about the guys / gals that dont have the luxury of being so nonchalant about it? The Dads and Moms that provide for kids and dont have the 'smarts' or whatever you'd like to call it about running a home business or just walking out Delta's door and into another decent paying job. This is more than you appear to make of it. Decent paying jobs are not everywhere contrary to popular belief.

[Doug Taylor]

Well, they need to do what they have to do.

I can't save the world, just an occasional planeload of passengers one emergency at a time.

It IS a big deal, but you control the things you have control over and things you can't, you needn't worry about.

Good grief, is anyone else as tired of this topic than I am?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Well, they need to do what they have to do.

I can't save the world, just a planeload of passengers one emergency at a time.

It IS a big deal, but you control the things you have control over and things you can't you needn't worry about.

The executives of Delta could say the same thing.

[Doug Taylor]

Well, that's their choice. I can't help that.

They fully understand the consequences of terminating our contract.

Once you break your emotional attachment to a job, it's really quite liberating.