Delta Pilots Vote to Authorize Strike by ~95%

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

Anybody that thinks that pilots, at any level, are paid what they are worth, is full of it. You say pilots are only able to be paid market value for their time. So what's the market value of...

-Fighting an aircraft down to the ground with a 10 knot tailwind because ATC won't turn the airport around QUITE yet

-Having the judgement and experience to pick their way around thunderstorms

-Having the judgement and experience to not hit another aircraft that ATC just vectored into you

What's the market rate for those things? Because you're not buying a pilot; you're being a product that is going to prevent you from getting killed. What's your life worth. I know we hate those arguments, but unless you can do the skill yourself (such as fly a plane, or hang drywall, or whatever else here), then you need to pay up for it.

So what's it worth to you? What do you think my students think I'm worth when they say, "Oh come on, the crosswind isn't THAT bad" and convince me to go up on a flight and then are sitting there nice and quiet while I bring the plane back because the crosswind component was outside of the ability level? What am I worth to them at that point? $500? Maybe $1,000?

see, i just call that "scarcity of skill" because there's not one passenger (probably) that can take those controls when it really counts.. even if that passenger has a PPL, he wouldn't be able to take the reins without shouting mayday over the radio hoping ATC will help talk him to the ground like in the movies.

[mrivc211]

Whats that line in the Lord of the Rings? "And so it has begun"? Thats gonna be the first thought in my head if this comes down to it.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Doug

Some people are banging on their war drums about a potential strike, I am hoping that something happens that makes a strike unnecessary, got my fingers crossed for you!

Anyone care to wager that that "something" comes in the form of an Executive Order?

[Doug Taylor]

No contract, no railway labor act or the basis for an executive order.

[mrivc211]

Originally Posted by aloft

Anyone care to wager that that "something" comes in the form of an Executive Order?

You can bet your as* GWB is gonna try and stop it.

[Tim]

You are never worth what you are paid for until the poopy hits the fan. Then the loudmouth in the backs would pay your whatever you wanted to save is butt.

[Mr_Creepy]

If you just want to fly airplanes, get a PPL. Don't get into the airline business.

Best quote I've seen in this thread so far, and it's from Doug!

I doubt Dubya will stop the strike. I do not think there will be any scabbing either. Delta will just cease operations until the strike is done, ala Comair.

[MQAAord]

In 2001 Dubya came right out and said he'd order us back to work via a PEB if we (the AA F/As) struck. Any strike we would have done would have lasted about 1 mintue. There was an 11th hour deal reached though, and it became a moot point. This was garden variety section 6 though, negotiating a new contract. It was a different situation.

[Mr_Creepy]

FAs maybe. Sorry to say it Amber, but ALPA has more teeth than AAFA. Sad fact.

Telling ALPA to go back to work with a PEB is pretty risky.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

There actually would be a really interesting (to eggheads like me) question as to whether POTUS would have the power to end a strike in this circumstance. These bankruptcy contract cancellations simply aren't contemplated by RLA. RLA says that when a contract ends (or when negotiating a first contract) the parties have to negotiate in good faith to a contract. If they reach impasse, then there's a cooling off period. Then the union may strike, if POTUS doesn't order further mediation with NMB. Here, there is a valid contract, which the company is seeking to throw out in bankruptcy. So big open question on how RLA applies. As you've heard, Delta thinks that pilots can't strike because there would be an existing contract (imposed by the court). But if that has any truth, then it also would be true that POTUS' power to order mediation also wouldn't be triggered.

In any case, I doubt GWB would stop a Delta strike. First, Delta is not as big as AA and a strike would not have the national impact that an AA strike would have. Second, I think Washington has figured out that the airlines simply need to sort themselves out, and I would bet that Washington is largely going to stay out of it until the dust settles.

But I'm usually wrong.

MF

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

There actually would be a really interesting (to eggheads like me) question as to whether POTUS would have the power to end a strike in this circumstance. These bankruptcy contract cancellations simply aren't contemplated by RLA. RLA says that when a contract ends (or when negotiating a first contract) the parties have to negotiate in good faith to a contract. If they reach impasse, then there's a cooling off period. Then the union may strike, if POTUS doesn't order further mediation with NMB. Here, there is a valid contract, which the company is seeking to throw out in bankruptcy. So big open question on how RLA applies. As you've heard, Delta thinks that pilots can't strike because there would be an existing contract (imposed by the court). But if that has any truth, then it also would be true that POTUS' power to order mediation also wouldn't be triggered.

In any case, I doubt GWB would stop a Delta strike. First, Delta is not as big as AA and a strike would not have the national impact that an AA strike would have. Second, I think Washington has figured out that the airlines simply need to sort themselves out, and I would bet that Washington is largely going to stay out of it until the dust settles.

But I'm usually wrong.

MF

Did you know that Delta has the most passenger enplanements of any airline except SWA?

KATL has the most enplanements of any passenger hub in the world? DAL controls like 90% of that hub traffic?

The president may not get involved...but the national impact...will be substantial.

[mpenguin1]

Originally Posted by aloft

Anyone care to wager that that "something" comes in the form of an Executive Order?

No, I was hoping for something more simpler, that the Bankruptcy Judge will not allow Delta to tear of the Union Contracts.....

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

Did you know that Delta has the most passenger enplanements of any airline except SWA?

KATL has the most enplanements of any passenger hub in the world? DAL controls like 90% of that hub traffic?

The president may not get involved...but the national impact...will be substantial.

I'm just gonna go ahead and refer you back to the last sentence of my post.

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

But I'm usually wrong.

[EricPalmer]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Am I, personally, the one that pulled off jets with CASM's less than $.10 to put on $0.25-plus CASM jets that passengers had a strong preference against?

Off topic.... I would be curious ( I really don't know ) which airframes?

[EricPalmer]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Don't cross your fingers for me, I appreciate it, but I'm a lot more than just a pilot.

Delta goes away, so be it, it's not my choice but if they're going to trash a 70 year old company over what amounts to a few weeks of revenue, there's nothing I can do so I don't worry about it.

If the big boat sinks, I'll do something else. Being an airline pilot is a fun job, but it's by no means my life nor do I define myself by it. I did back in my regional days, but I had a lot of focus but as I matured, I broadened my interests greatly and it became a fun way to make money and a way to travel cheaply to Europe to explore.

Not that I'm some Joan of Arc on a religious quest that I MUST fly airplanes so I have to protect that ability by all costs.

Umm, no. Besides, I still have my private!

I put a lot into the performance of my job, but if I'm not going to be paid appropriately or treated professionally because the $1000/hr consultants think that our skills are valueless, well, later skater!.

If they force a strike, we strike and the company goes away, well, wasn't my fault! The sun will rise, I'll play 'house dad' and build my home business and stay off the 'gotta be an employee'-grid because being an employee ain't where it's at in the new American economy.

The company knew the risk when they started the whole game.

Great words.

[ETAV8R]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

... build my home business and stay off the 'gotta be an employee'-grid because being an employee ain't where it's at in the new American economy.

Someone's been reading rich dad poor dad.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by eta71

Someone's been reading rich dad poor dad.

Nope!

[TechFlyer]

Originally Posted by eta71

Someone's been reading rich dad poor dad.

Off topic but I heard Rich Dad Poor Dad...a great book for ANYONE to read.

[Texguy]

Originally Posted by TechFlyer

Off topic but I heard Rich Dad Poor Dad...a great book for ANYONE to read.

There was actually a discussion about that here about 3 months ago. Sorry, I am too lazy to do a search on that for you.

[Mr_Creepy]

His next book was better - "Cashflow Quadrant"
He's an arrogant SOB but that book is worth it.

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

Telling ALPA to go back to work with a PEB is pretty risky.

Ignoring a PEB would be suicide.

However, you need to know that the PEB would only establish another 30-day cooling off period after which a final 30-day cooling off period might be ordered. After that, there is NOTHING in the Railway Labor Act that could deny the parties their rights to enter self help. Were it not so, the Contracts entered into under the RLA would not be legal, as they would be, in effect, a legalized form of slavery.


It would really do folks a lot of good to study the RLA. We live under it, and it has a great deal of influence over how our work rules and pay and benefits are determined - - it's our life. Knowing it also helps keep you from saying stupid stuff about airline contracts and self-help and such.




.

[B767Driver]

These talks are complicated by the fact that they are not under the auspices of the RLA...but rather the bankruptcy code. The CVG paper this morning made mention that the precedent of a tranport labor strike under bankruptcy proceedings has not been set...and the legality of a strike might be determined in the US Supreme Court.

One side seems to think that RLA laws prevail...the other side says no. Independent counsels does not know.

Make no doubt...shopping for a judge is occuring. No doubt you can find a judge to rule in your favor and rule an injunction...a temporary restraining order. But that still doesn't settle the matter...a TRO is just that...temporary...and a decision from a court still must be made.

I say standby for a strike...a TRO minutes into it...and months of legal wrangling. Is this the type of company you really want to work for? Is this the type of industry you really want to get involved with? I've only been in the industry 13 years...and have been through 1 strike...1 pending...and numerous contentious negotiations.

If you're going to be an airline pilot...grow some thick skin and be ready to fight for the job you love. It's not for wimps.

[DE727UPS]

"If you're going to be an airline pilot...grow some thick skin and be ready to fight for the job you love. It's not for wimps"

I'll add, if you want to improve your lot, you gotta be ready to walk away from the career at any time.

What you said should be included in every flight academies website along with a link to JC.

Of course, there's no money in that, so it won't happen.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"If you're going to be an airline pilot...grow some thick skin and be ready to fight for the job you love. It's not for wimps"

I'll add, if you want to improve your lot, you gotta be ready to walk away from the career at any time.

What you said should be included in every flight academies website along with a link to JC.

Of course, there's no money in that, so it won't happen.

Amen.

And the threats are everywhere anymore...and it's making the job very difficult to enjoy. Of course, diabetes, an erratic EKG, a terrorist attack, a new LCC start up flying 757's for $25 per hour could strike any of us tomorrow...and any of these would be as bad or worse than a strike.

The profession used to hold small assurances against some of the above...such as long term disability if you couldn't fly...i.e. diabetes diagnosis at age 35...you receive 65% of your pay until age 60...then a full retirement. This allowed the medical risk to be managed for a professional pilot. Now...no disability at all...unless you meet the SS definition of disabled...which pretty much means you are a vegetable. This chances of qualifying for a Class 1 medical all the way to age 60 or beyond is not extremely high. This is why scope is so important. It's not just the airplanes...it's benefits such as above that are being eliminated from the profession as the majors lose their flying to smaller outfits. Most guys probably don't even realize the magnitude of benefits the profession has lost thru the lost flying at the majors.

Since 9/11 most guys have come to the realization that something dramatic could occur at any moment...eliminating what's left of their profession...and driving guys to new careers that are profitable, challenging and enjoying, if not exponentially more secure.

I never thought I'd envy a freight driver (having been one myself I know how hard it is) but you've got about the last safe haven in the industry. But then again, who knows what a bad case of the bird flu would do to you guys as well?

[DE727UPS]

"who knows what a bad case of the bird flu would do to you guys as well"

You're assuming I give a crap...