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April 7th, 2006, 17:36
| #126 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT
Posts: 12,869
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Anybody that thinks that pilots, at any level, are paid what they are worth, is full of it. You say pilots are only able to be paid market value for their time. So what's the market value of... -Fighting an aircraft down to the ground with a 10 knot tailwind because ATC won't turn the airport around QUITE yet -Having the judgement and experience to pick their way around thunderstorms -Having the judgement and experience to not hit another aircraft that ATC just vectored into you What's the market rate for those things? Because you're not buying a pilot; you're being a product that is going to prevent you from getting killed. What's your life worth. I know we hate those arguments, but unless you can do the skill yourself (such as fly a plane, or hang drywall, or whatever else here), then you need to pay up for it. So what's it worth to you? What do you think my students think I'm worth when they say, "Oh come on, the crosswind isn't THAT bad" and convince me to go up on a flight and then are sitting there nice and quiet while I bring the plane back because the crosswind component was outside of the ability level? What am I worth to them at that point? $500? Maybe $1,000? Economics is MUCH more complicated than supply and demand.
__________________  "Jetlink 2940, on another radio, contact clearance for new airways..." |
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April 7th, 2006, 17:44
| #127 | |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 7,329
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April 7th, 2006, 18:08
| #128 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland
Posts: 15,922
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No, instead, they kept ALL of their employees who wanted to stay, gave buyouts to those who wanted to leave, and kept their pilots at the top of the pay scale. That's right. The pilots at SWA are the highest paid 737 pilots, higher than their counterparts at those evil legacy carriers. I had an interesting conversation with someone who does SWA's training programs at a trade show I was attending. You know how in the Frontier FA training show, they say, look to your left and look to your right. One of you will not make it? She said that is so not Southwest. Southwest would NEVER do that, and in fact, they did something where at the beginning of their FA training, they tell the people there they will do everything to help them make it. You think that doesn't boost morale and make people happy about working for Southwest? If you want to have employees who aren't fighting you every step of the way, it might be a good idea to not treat them like crap. | |
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April 7th, 2006, 18:24
| #129 | |
| Junior Member  Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 73
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Good to know someone else enjoys the debate. Yes I am worried about the profitability of the airline. By the airline being profitable it will take care of the welfare of the employees. Since the airline is not profitable the welfare of the employees is suffering through pay cuts, reduced benefits, ect. because costs have to be adjusted. If the airline is profitable then the employee welfare will increase--Southwests pilot pay increase. By having some of the best payscales now in the industry, Southwest has their fair share of people knocking on their door. They get to pick and choose the highest quality of applicants. Correct me if I'm wrong on this: Southwests' highest pay levels were not near the high legacy pay grades pre-9/11, right? This allowed them to allocate capital to other things. Buying more airplanes than leasing. In the long term this put the company in a stronger financial position than some of the legacy carriers that leased out a greater percentage of their fleet. Like I said let me know if I'm off on that one. Hey, y'all were talkin about it so I opined. Hope there was nothing wrong with that. BTW, affirmative action IS a bad idea.  | |
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April 7th, 2006, 18:29
| #130 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 73
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Tony, Not to mention the Southwest business model was built to better absorb the effects of 9/11. The days of $2,000 business tickets were over and the legacies were in trouble because that was their business model. I think Southwest has got it right on. |
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April 7th, 2006, 18:40
| #131 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,577
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"The best thing the pilot group could do is completely get rid of the union" And then... "I've never flown for an airline or worked in the business....I would never assume to know more than the people who work in the industry day to day" What is it about college kids that makes them such experts in things they have no experience in? You read a book and study economics and it makes YOU qualified to tell me I should get rid of MY union? Unions aren't perfect but I shudder to think what my job would be like without one. Or this career, for that matter. I would guess that the vast majority of union airline pilots in this country would laugh at you to your face with that first quote, especially considering you have no experience in the industry. I know I would. Tell ya what, come back in 20 years after you have a job at Fedex, UPS, or Southwest and tell me you still feel the same way. And that's a pilot job, not a management job, which would be right up your alley. |
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April 7th, 2006, 18:43
| #132 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,389
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__________________ Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. — Henry Ford | |
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April 7th, 2006, 18:53
| #133 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 73
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Yes, that was a blatant contradiction on my part and the former quote was an inappropriate thing to say. What I should have said was: That in my experience, from what I have studied, unions have done more harm than good. The latter statement does not suggest what anyone should do with the union.
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April 7th, 2006, 20:53
| #134 | |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland
Posts: 15,922
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Know what it costs to fly business class from IAD to SIN? It costs around $7K. And guess what? That section was full on the ANA flight I was on. Do you think Patricia Russo is flying coach when she flies from EWR to CDG when Alcatel and Lucent merge? Business class there is about $5K. First class, where she's going to be if she doesn't take the corporate jet, is probably double that. When I flew to the Paris Air Show, business and first were completely full both ways. So you're right. The days of the $2K business tickets are gone. Try much, much higher, and they will pay for them. | |
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April 7th, 2006, 21:02
| #135 |
| Agent Smith  |
"Donny, you're out of your league."
__________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28) |
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April 7th, 2006, 21:29
| #136 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: KPHX, KFFZ, KIWA
Posts: 19,231
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Here is a question that not sure if it has been addressed in either thread. When and if the pilots strike how is DL going to get there 400-500 planes back on property in ATL? Planes will be stuck at outstations like PHX,LAX,SEA etc. (Doug's prolly like who cares...and I agree) how are they gonna get home. No pilots *I believe* in a union can ferry them home because that would be scabbing...right? Which leaves management pilots because there non-union. Does DL have 400 management pilots? Probably not! Leave it idling on the taxiway... |
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April 7th, 2006, 21:37
| #137 |
| Agent Smith |
Management pilots? There are pilots that are in management in various positions, but they're still bound by the rules about scabbing. Personally, in my opinion, if they're dumb enough to press for a strike, do you think I give a rats arse about a plane stuck in Baton Rouge?
__________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28) |
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April 7th, 2006, 21:44
| #138 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,943
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The only pilot exempt from the strike would be the Executive VP of Flight Operations. He could go to work and not be considered a scab. No one else is exempt. | |
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April 7th, 2006, 21:47
| #140 |
| Junior Member  Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: USA
Posts: 274
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If they go on strike, Delta can really come down all together, and then they will have no jobs! Help the Airline get by tough times. Dont make it worse then it is already. Thats my opinion, and i know i may get flamed by it, but its very true.
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April 7th, 2006, 21:47
| #141 | |
| Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: KPHX, KFFZ, KIWA
Posts: 19,231
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As you caring I addressed that previously... | |
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April 7th, 2006, 21:48
| #142 | |
| Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: KPHX, KFFZ, KIWA
Posts: 19,231
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April 7th, 2006, 22:06
| #143 |
| Agent Smith |
Don't cross your fingers for me, I appreciate it, but I'm a lot more than just a pilot. Delta goes away, so be it, it's not my choice but if they're going to trash a 70 year old company over what amounts to a few weeks of revenue, there's nothing I can do so I don't worry about it. If the big boat sinks, I'll do something else. Being an airline pilot is a fun job, but it's by no means my life nor do I define myself by it. I did back in my regional days, but I had a lot of focus but as I matured, I broadened my interests greatly and it became a fun way to make money and a way to travel cheaply to Europe to explore. Not that I'm some Joan of Arc on a religious quest that I MUST fly airplanes so I have to protect that ability by all costs. Umm, no. Besides, I still have my private! I put a lot into the performance of my job, but if I'm not going to be paid appropriately or treated professionally because the $1000/hr consultants think that our skills are valueless, well, later skater!. If they force a strike, we strike and the company goes away, well, wasn't my fault! The sun will rise, I'll play 'house dad' and build my home business and stay off the 'gotta be an employee'-grid because being an employee ain't where it's at in the new American economy. The company knew the risk when they started the whole game.
__________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28) |
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April 7th, 2006, 22:19
| #144 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: USA
Posts: 274
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I feel for the Pilots Doug, BTW i'm not from USA, where i come from there are very close relationships between the airlines and the pilots, and you'd never see such a thing down there. I'm not trying to offend anyone, you're all very friendly, but i was just teliing you guys my .2 censts. Sorry if i offended, i never meant to in a million years. |
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April 7th, 2006, 22:46
| #145 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever
Posts: 4,499
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OK, that's it. All a.netters out of the pool!
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April 7th, 2006, 23:21
| #146 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,205
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Doug you can finally do your dream job......Jetcareers Aviation Academy. We build pilots for tomorrows right seat.
__________________ Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turn skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.----- Leonardo Da Vinci |
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April 7th, 2006, 23:49
| #147 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa
Posts: 3,752
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If the answer is no, then you are taking out of the same place your digested food departs your body. You can throw theroetical BS around all day and all it's gonna do is get the walls brown. Talk to me after you've done your 6th leg at the end of your SCHEDULED 15 hour duty day and have a 4am show the next morning.
__________________  .......................... p i l o t 6 0 2 ** insert something witty, here ** | |
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April 8th, 2006, 00:05
| #148 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: SF/Berkley CA.
Posts: 118
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If Delta pilots strike I sincerely doubt the company will liqidate either immediately or in a matter of days. Comair pilots struck for several weeks and that airline didn't liqiudate at all. My dad (United 757/767 FO-Former captain pre 9/11) wishes you guys @ Delta luck and many fond wishes
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April 8th, 2006, 00:36
| #149 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,205
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Delta has more money set aside than they will ever reveal so if there is a strike that can run for a short time....I dont think long term they can but who knows..maybe they can get a loan for Leo or Michelle
__________________ Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turn skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.----- Leonardo Da Vinci |
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April 8th, 2006, 01:47
| #150 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 73
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Just noticed the thread a few rows down talking about the same thing. Funny, I guess we do fly in circles all day on these issues, regardless of your opinion. Oh well. Now speaking of PFT...
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