VLJ v. Turboprop - Private Air

[meritflyer]

I read an article today in Private Air that dogged hard on King Airs and other cool turboprops while trying to boost the VLJ image. It featured John and Martha King talking about a bunch of piston single engine pilots jumping into their new VLJ. I think its total BS!

The King Air, Pilatus, Meridian, and TBM are awesome aircraft. I think the VLJ thing is going to be a total disaster.

It seems that TP manufacturers are taking aim back at the VLJ makers in effort to stomp the VLJ hype before it begins. The TP makers will do this by enhancing power, fuel efficiency, avionics, cabin size, and DOCs. The PC-12 and TBM 850 have already started to improve their aircraft in order to compete with the VLJs. The new TBM 850 cruises at a crazy 320 KIAS at FL260.

VLJs are cool, but the TP makers will step up their game and we should see some pretty awesome advances in the TP aircraft industry.

[Shemsey]

it's not going to be a disaster, it's called evolution dude

[Doug Taylor]

I think the whol VLJ hype is a lot like "It".

"It" was going to revolutionize human transport.

Cities were going to redesign themselves around people using "It".

"It" was going to make the world safer, more efficient and cleaner.

When "It" finally debuted, it was a $3,000 scooter.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

When "It" finally debuted, it was a $3,000 scooter.

But it was a "COOL" scooter!!!! Technology wise, it was a great accomplishment, IMO. Now there is a $500 knock-off of it.

[skyhawk39]

Originally Posted by Shemsey

it's not going to be a disaster, it's called evolution dude

I would love nothing more that to see VLJ's and the aircraft that have sprung from NASA's SATS program (such as the Cirrus and the Columbia) become big players in the Air Taxi market and take a bite out of the Air Carriers. Maybe with the mandate of Low Sulfur diesel and some other new things in the petrochemical market they can get turboprops back to a more competitive footing with the VLJ's....

You hear a lot of stuff around about how "perhaps some private pilot will suddenly be in the flight levels, causing problems for us...blah blah blah..." The cost of these things are going to preclude this, just like the cost of a turboprop still does. I know a dude that has a Colombia that uses it to travel all over the Western US with his two business partners, all the time in the flight levels, and a heck of a lot cheaper AND faster (point to point) than the airlines. I've given him BFR's and IPC's and he is not a slacker in the cockpit, and I'd trust him more than some ATP/Captains I've met....thing is he can afford the airplane, and the training that is required to fly the airplane. If a person is going to be there, they will know what they are doing, the insurance companies and the manufacturers and (eventually) the FAA will see to that. I think when it comes out in the end though, probably 90% of the new VLJ's will be bought by corporate flight departments and Air Taxi guys trying to make a living with them.

I was part of an economic and use study on the Air Taxi market in the southwest and there is a potential here...getting the word out and getting people to understand the savings of flying directly into a place rather than being cattle to Seattle is where the key is....

[RynoB]

VLJs are intended to fit a niche market. Turboprobs will be affected by them, but not as much as the VLJ makers would like to think. A King Air 90 or PC-12 can still carry a heavier load than many of the VLJs. I know some owner-pilots that fly light jets (Citation 500 & 525) that perform very professionally. The insurance companies and FAA have done a good job to make sure they get the proper training (and annual recurrent traing.

[Texasspilot]

I don't even know how those little things stay in the air.....wheres the propeller?

[Foxcow]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

The new TBM 850 cruises at a crazy 320 KIAS at FL260.

That has to be KTAS

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by RynoB

I know some owner-pilots that fly light jets (Citation 500 & 525) that perform very professionally.

Yeah, and for every one of them, there's half a dozen flying larger twin/turbine equipment that shouldn't even be flying a 210.

[Doug Taylor]

Ahh, the 210! The "High-wing ExecuKiller!"

"It's got boots and a turbocharger, she's made to penetrate thunderstorms..."

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Ahh, the 210! The "High-wing ExecuKiller!"

"It's got boots and a turbocharger, she's made to penetrate thunderstorms..."

Richard Collins? What?

[Doug Taylor]

"Those 777 drivers look at my 210 and I tell 'em to bow down and behold!"

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by RynoB

A King Air 90 or PC-12 can still carry a heavier load than many of the VLJs.

It's not a question of load capability. Use this site as an example;How many guys on here have dreams of flying the Dash8 and the ATR? Very few, everyone wants the RJ because it's a jet. The VLJs are going to be for day trips with a few people and very few, if any baggage. That being said, the Eclipse is going to priced very close to that of a new Baron. Do you think Mr Owner/pilot will want to fly his golf buddies in his shaky new piston twin or his cool new jet? (No offense to the Baron)

Originally Posted by RynoB

I know some owner-pilots that fly light jets (Citation 500 & 525) that perform very professionally.

It only takes a handful to ruin a good thing.

Originally Posted by RynoB

The insurance companies and FAA have done a good job to make sure they get the proper training (and annual recurrent training.

The April 2006 Flying Magazine Aftermath is a great example that contradicts this line of thought. With enough time and money a person can get himself legally qualified.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

It's not a question of load capability. Use this site as an example;How many guys on here have dreams of flying the Dash8 and the ATR? Very few, everyone wants the RJ because it's a jet. The VLJs are going to be for day trips with a few people and very few, if any baggage. That being said, the Eclipse is going to priced very close to that of a new Baron. Do you think Mr Owner/pilot will want to fly his golf buddies in his shaky new piston twin or his cool new jet? (No offense to the Baron)

I personally would rather fly a B-99 for a 135 freight company, after I got 1200 hrs, than be an FO on a RJ. Multi-Turbine PIC right off for a stable company, or RJ FO for 3-5 years then be a captain, working for less and less to compete against your fellow ALPA pilots for your own job.

I think I'll take the freight. I know I am in the minority however.

[tonyw]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Use this site as an example;How many guys on here have dreams of flying the Dash8 and the ATR? Very few, everyone wants the RJ because it's a jet.

That used to be me. Now? I don't care what I fly, as long as it's safe and I'm compensated decently. I guess I've gotten cynical and jaded.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Ahh, the 210! The "High-wing ExecuKiller!"

"It's got boots and a turbocharger, she's made to penetrate thunderstorms..."

Is this similar to the "V-tailed Doctor Killer?"

I have heard some derogatory things about 210 owners myself.
Must be some truth to it. I heard a couple 210 pilots the other day switch frequencies and start bragging to eachother about their rate of climb and crap.

[averyrm]

I'm still wondering about the "Eclipse mentor program" deal. Who, at 5k hours, would want pay for the "priviledge" to babysit an owner/operator?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Is this similar to the "V-tailed Doctor Killer?"

It's a very capable aircraft, but I think it suffers from people thinking the aircraft is going to babysit them in scenarios which far outpace their experience levels.

People get a little wrapped up into the capabiities of an aircraft without recognizing that it doesn't replace judgement and experience.

I know it sounds cynical, but I fear the VLJ "revolution" is going to take the "210 kings", the 100-hour lawyer with a 285 HP Bonanza and the people that go traipsing off into moderate rime icing in a Cirrus because it's got weeping wings and a parachute and put them up into the flight levels.

They're very capable aircraft with a lot of neat systems and nice displays, but high-altitude, high-speed, swept wing flight is no place for a rookie.

Especially not a schwarm of thousands.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by averyrm

I'm still wondering about the "Eclipse mentor program" deal. Who, at 5k hours, would want pay for the "priviledge" to babysit an owner/operator?

It might be fun for me, but it's going to involve a lot of flight instruction and my services aren't free!

If I've got to constantly remind a owner/operator at low/high buffet margins and that you simplly can bust into a 45 degree turn at FL320 while under positive control, I'm gettin' paid!

[averyrm]

I understand they're going to be compensated, but they have to pay for all the training to be a mentor.

I'd imagine the training can't be cheap..

[desertdog71]

We had a 210 in for repair at my school/FBO and one of the other students was able to fly it for about 10 minutes while the boss was doing a check flight in it. He said it was really easy to get behind the airplane, and got a little dose of reality as far as his plans for buying a high performance plane right away.

[skyhawk39]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

They're very capable aircraft with a lot of neat systems and nice displays, but high-altitude, high-speed, swept wing flight is no place for a rookie.

Especially not a schwarm of thousands.

Hmmm... has anyone at ALPA, ATA or the other all mighty unions ever thought about telling the regionals the same thing ?

[Doug Taylor]

The ATA is the "Airline Transport Association" more or less the Lex Luthor to organized labor at the airlines.

[Kingairer]

More idiots in the air flying faster is always a good thing!

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

I think I'll take the freight. I know I am in the minority however.

Yeah, you're in the minority who will have a lot of PIC time, and better experience than the 10,000 twenty-somethings with assloads of RJ SIC time.

You won't regret it.