Need some advice

Gonzo · March 23rd, 2006, 11:05

I need some advice on how to handle a situation I am having with my flight school. I go to a 141 flight school so my training should be by the syllabus. When I started my training my first flight instructor told me we were following the syllabus slightly modified I didn't question him (first mistake). As I was approaching my $7,000 budget for my private license I started asking my instructor where I was on the modified syllabus. He kept reassuring me I was almost done. Needless to say five months and a large amount of money later I went to take my check ride today. When I sat down with the DE (he's the owner of the flight school I go to) noticed I did not have acceptable amount of hours to take my check ride. I am disappointed he has such little oversight of his own flight school and the instructors. How should I handle this situation? Do I ask the owner if I can just pay fuel for these last few hours? A friend of the family who's a lawyer is encouraging me to sue. (I really don't want to do that because it's not my personality and I hate to burn bridges). Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

Doug Taylor · March 23rd, 2006, 11:17

What are your flight times? I'm curious as to why he'd submit an 8710 form that didn't mean the minimum experience requirements.

I think you're going to have a very hard time convincing the flight school help defray the costs of additional training by just paying for fuel, but that's just my opinion!

Just a word of advice, lawyers always want to sue, but as a former CFI, I'm not sure just what the foundation for a lawsuit would be.

I think I'd focus on meeting the experience requirements for the checkride and search for another flight school if you're feeling hoodwinked. Changing flight schools now while you're still close to your checkride is going to cost more money. Additionally, filing a lawsuit isn't going to help with training costs at all either.

More information please!

Gonzo · March 23rd, 2006, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

What are your flight times? I'm curious as to why he'd submit an 8710 form that didn't mean the minimum experience requirements.

97TT 20hr Duel Cross-Country 7hr Solo Cross-Country 15 Solo PIC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I think you're going to have a very hard time convincing the flight school help defray the costs of additional training by just paying for fuel, but that's just my opinion!

It's a mid-70s BE-23. He has no plane payment and does most of the maintenance himself (he is an A&P)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Just a word of advice, lawyers always want to sue, but as a former CFI, I'm not sure just what the foundation for a lawsuit would be.

The lawyer feels based on the fact that the school is 141 and very structured and I did not fail a lesson or failed a stage check there is no reason why it cost me three times more then his maximum published estimates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I think I'd focus on meeting the experience requirements for the checkride and search for another flight school if you're feeling hoodwinked. Changing flight schools now while you're still close to your checkride is going to cost more money. Additionally, filing a lawsuit isn't going to help with training costs at all either.

I'm going up tomorrow to get that last 1.5 of Solo cross-country time I need to meet his approved syllabus requirements. I think that's the thing that upsets me the most is the owner gave me the 8710 not my instructor. And per the FARs he could give me my completion certificate with my times now but chooses not to. The other thing that upsets me I have a confirmed start date of April 2 at Ari-ben. I wanted to do my private at a FBO( like everyone here recommends) I guess I just picked the wrong one.

EDUC8-or · March 23rd, 2006, 11:40

No matter where you decide to continue your flight training get out your FAR's and look at part 61 very carefully. That way you'll have an idea of your progress and what's needed for every license and rating.

Doug Taylor · March 23rd, 2006, 11:48

Not to be 'forensic' about the issue, but when did you start training?

Also, did the owner issue you an 8710 after you confronted your CFI about overages?

If the owner was the examiner, but coincidentally the owner is the one who issued your 8710 form instead of your CFI, something's a little fishy. I wasn't aware that a person can endorse an 8710 and then turn around and give a practical examination to the same person.

I'm just digging in the 'way back file' to think of what questions I'd ask you if I was still a CFI and you were a student pilot walking in with the same story.

Gonzo · March 23rd, 2006, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Not to be 'forensic' about the issue, but when did you start training?

Also, did the owner issue you an 8710 after you confronted your CFI about overages?

If the owner was the examiner, but coincidentally the owner is the one who issued your 8710 form instead of your CFI, something's a little fishy. I wasn't aware that a person can endorse an 8710 and then turn around and give a practical examination to the same person.

I'm just digging in the 'way back file' to think of what questions I'd ask you if I was still a CFI and you were a student pilot walking in with the same story.

This is really my fault I need to be more descriptive when I write things. It's been about four months since I was upset about the overage. I switched CFI's and have been very happy with my current CFI (mtsu grad). The owner did my final stage check and at the end of the flight looked through my logbook and handed me the 8710 telling me how to fill it out. He told me to bring the form back the day of my Check ride so my CFI could sign the proper endorsements in my logbook and the 8710. He told me to count that day as my graduation day and he would put that on the certificate which he would give me the day of the check ride. Hopefully this will clear up why I'm so frustrated. He knew my times a week ago

Doug Taylor · March 23rd, 2006, 12:27

No problem.

Ok, don't take this as a lecture, but whenever you're training for a certificate, whether it be at Joe Schmoe FBO or Embry Riddle, always pick up a copy of the "Practical Test Standards" (aka "PTS") in order to see what the FAA is looking for in terms of performance and flight experience.

But if it's only another 1.5 hour of cross country needed, I think it's going to be more cost efficient to get the time taken care of and reapply for the checkride immediately.

At this point, every day you're not flying you're running the risk of becoming 'rusty' with manuevers and other material.

Gonzo · March 23rd, 2006, 12:40

I do meet all the practical test standards. I need all the requirements part 141 per the FARs. How was I supposed to know he has updated his approved syllabus in almost 10 years(I did all my flight training under the current Jepp syllabus). I guess I'm just very upset because he could have given me the completion certificate and could have given me the check ride if he wanted to based on the FARs. He knew I have the date set for starting at Ari-Ben. He knows I have a plane ticket for Wednesday to make a quick trip to Boston to drop off my pet with a friend to watch her while I'm in Florida.

DE727UPS · March 23rd, 2006, 13:34

As a 97 hour total time Private with 7K invested, flying a Beech 23 instead of a 150, I don't think you have much to complain about.

Part 141 is supposed to save you time, 35 hrs vs 40. I'd say, for whatever reason, you went vastly over syllabus mins if you have 97 hours. If the school/CFI was milking you for time, then that's unfortunate, but you gotta step up and see that coming.

With part 61, you know EXACTLY what is required of you for flight times. I guess 141, it can vary, but I see it as your responsibility to know and meet the mins on checkride day. I also make the student fill out the 8710, then I review it.

A syllabus can't make you perform up to min standards. If your first CFI "modified" the syllabus because you needed more time to meet the standard, then he was right to do so.

I'd be pissed too, if I spent 7K and they had promised it would cost you one third of that. But 7K for what you got so far doesn't sound that bad to me.

I guess I still don't get what you're upset about.

Graduation certificate? Tell them to Fedex it to you in Florida or fax it to Ari, if they need it.

Gonzo · March 23rd, 2006, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I guess I still don't get what you're upset about.

I'm upset because I was quoted $5,000 at Max instead I have spent a little bit under $15,000 to date. I'm upset because I found out my first CFI has never had a private student complete training(I was his only student who doesn't own a BE-58). I'm upset because the owner of the flight school could give me a certificate of completion with my times so I could take my Check ride. I'm upset because he knew my times a week ago when he looked through my logbook.

DE727UPS · March 23rd, 2006, 13:51

"I'm upset because I was quoted $5,000 at Max instead I have spent a little bit under $15,000 to date."

15K for a 97 hour PPL. Now there's something to be upset about. How did that happen? You blame it on your first CFI?

Doug Taylor · March 23rd, 2006, 14:00

Well, my advice to be would be to find the most efficient method to get your private.

In my personal opinion, the most efficient and cost-effective method would be to complete the mssing flight experience and take the checkride.

Guaranteed, if you changed schools before getting your private, it will cost more because the new CFI will have to evaluate your skills and certificate of completion or not, he's not going to risk having a student potentially fail a checkride on his 'scoreboard'.

Immediately reschedule the checkride and get the extra 1.5 hours of XC today.

Gonzo · March 23rd, 2006, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"I'm upset because I was quoted $5,000 at Max instead I have spent a little bit under $15,000 to date."

15K for a 97 hour PPL. Now there's something to be upset about. How did that happen? You blame it on your first CFI?

I blame myself for allowing it to go for as long as it did. (There were signs earlier on) I do blame of my first CFI somewhat. If he didn't want to instruct primary students he should have told me. I blame the owner for not allowing the CFI's to do pattern work at our home field. Ultimately I blame on myself for not doing more research about the flight school. If I would have done more research I probably would have discovered they do predominately multiengine in the students plane. In the last year I was the only private pilot student of my first CFI and the owner has not had one private pilot student.

Kristie · March 23rd, 2006, 14:09

alrighty then... stop blaming yourself, take it as a life lesson and git'er done! ASAP!

when you move over to ATP, make sure you ask more questions and keep on top of things better...

British Pilot · March 23rd, 2006, 16:00

I am at a Part 141 school, but on training under Part 61....I am using the King DVDs as opposed to the Cessna kit, which I am told is the reason why...I didn't stop to question that, but what I do question is my progress through the syllabus.

I am adamant about sitting down with my CFI at the beginning and end of each lesson to discuss what we want to achieve that day, and what we actually achieved at the end of the flight.

Those items we did not get to due to weather or time restrictions, I ensure are covered first in our next lesson, and we always reference the PTS every lesson. I also ask my CFI what I should be studying between now and our next lesson, and we are big fans of putting tick marks next to things we need to achieve.

I know this is not helpful to you now, but I hope it will be during your Instrument, ME and Commercial, which are also big money certificates and ratings.

Take charge and manage your CFI, I am sure he wants you to be nothing but a successful and safe pilot.

March 23rd, 2006, 11:05	#1
Gonzo Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,765	Need some advice I need some advice on how to handle a situation I am having with my flight school. I go to a 141 flight school so my training should be by the syllabus. When I started my training my first flight instructor told me we were following the syllabus slightly modified I didn't question him (first mistake). As I was approaching my $7,000 budget for my private license I started asking my instructor where I was on the modified syllabus. He kept reassuring me I was almost done. Needless to say five months and a large amount of money later I went to take my check ride today. When I sat down with the DE (he's the owner of the flight school I go to) noticed I did not have acceptable amount of hours to take my check ride. I am disappointed he has such little oversight of his own flight school and the instructors. How should I handle this situation? Do I ask the owner if I can just pay fuel for these last few hours? A friend of the family who's a lawyer is encouraging me to sue. (I really don't want to do that because it's not my personality and I hate to burn bridges). Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

March 23rd, 2006, 11:17	#2
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	What are your flight times? I'm curious as to why he'd submit an 8710 form that didn't mean the minimum experience requirements. I think you're going to have a very hard time convincing the flight school help defray the costs of additional training by just paying for fuel, but that's just my opinion! Just a word of advice, lawyers always want to sue, but as a former CFI, I'm not sure just what the foundation for a lawsuit would be. I think I'd focus on meeting the experience requirements for the checkride and search for another flight school if you're feeling hoodwinked. Changing flight schools now while you're still close to your checkride is going to cost more money. Additionally, filing a lawsuit isn't going to help with training costs at all either. More information please! __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

March 23rd, 2006, 11:48	#5
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Not to be 'forensic' about the issue, but when did you start training? Also, did the owner issue you an 8710 after you confronted your CFI about overages? If the owner was the examiner, but coincidentally the owner is the one who issued your 8710 form instead of your CFI, something's a little fishy. I wasn't aware that a person can endorse an 8710 and then turn around and give a practical examination to the same person. I'm just digging in the 'way back file' to think of what questions I'd ask you if I was still a CFI and you were a student pilot walking in with the same story. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

March 23rd, 2006, 12:27	#7
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	No problem. Ok, don't take this as a lecture, but whenever you're training for a certificate, whether it be at Joe Schmoe FBO or Embry Riddle, always pick up a copy of the "Practical Test Standards" (aka "PTS") in order to see what the FAA is looking for in terms of performance and flight experience. But if it's only another 1.5 hour of cross country needed, I think it's going to be more cost efficient to get the time taken care of and reapply for the checkride immediately. At this point, every day you're not flying you're running the risk of becoming 'rusty' with manuevers and other material. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

March 23rd, 2006, 14:00	#12
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Well, my advice to be would be to find the most efficient method to get your private. In my personal opinion, the most efficient and cost-effective method would be to complete the mssing flight experience and take the checkride. Guaranteed, if you changed schools before getting your private, it will cost more because the new CFI will have to evaluate your skills and certificate of completion or not, he's not going to risk having a student potentially fail a checkride on his 'scoreboard'. Immediately reschedule the checkride and get the extra 1.5 hours of XC today. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

March 23rd, 2006, 11:40	#4
EDUC8-or Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: NC Posts: 2,332	No matter where you decide to continue your flight training get out your FAR's and look at part 61 very carefully. That way you'll have an idea of your progress and what's needed for every license and rating.

March 23rd, 2006, 12:40	#8
Gonzo Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,765	I do meet all the practical test standards. I need all the requirements part 141 per the FARs. How was I supposed to know he has updated his approved syllabus in almost 10 years(I did all my flight training under the current Jepp syllabus). I guess I'm just very upset because he could have given me the completion certificate and could have given me the check ride if he wanted to based on the FARs. He knew I have the date set for starting at Ari-Ben. He knows I have a plane ticket for Wednesday to make a quick trip to Boston to drop off my pet with a friend to watch her while I'm in Florida.

March 23rd, 2006, 13:34	#9
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	As a 97 hour total time Private with 7K invested, flying a Beech 23 instead of a 150, I don't think you have much to complain about. Part 141 is supposed to save you time, 35 hrs vs 40. I'd say, for whatever reason, you went vastly over syllabus mins if you have 97 hours. If the school/CFI was milking you for time, then that's unfortunate, but you gotta step up and see that coming. With part 61, you know EXACTLY what is required of you for flight times. I guess 141, it can vary, but I see it as your responsibility to know and meet the mins on checkride day. I also make the student fill out the 8710, then I review it. A syllabus can't make you perform up to min standards. If your first CFI "modified" the syllabus because you needed more time to meet the standard, then he was right to do so. I'd be pissed too, if I spent 7K and they had promised it would cost you one third of that. But 7K for what you got so far doesn't sound that bad to me. I guess I still don't get what you're upset about. Graduation certificate? Tell them to Fedex it to you in Florida or fax it to Ari, if they need it.

March 23rd, 2006, 13:51	#11
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	"I'm upset because I was quoted $5,000 at Max instead I have spent a little bit under $15,000 to date." 15K for a 97 hour PPL. Now there's something to be upset about. How did that happen? You blame it on your first CFI?

March 23rd, 2006, 14:09	#14
Kristie Big Chief's Woman Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 19,291 Blog Entries: 3	alrighty then... stop blaming yourself, take it as a life lesson and git'er done! ASAP! when you move over to ATP, make sure you ask more questions and keep on top of things better... __________________ Wife of a Delta B767 ER F/O jetgirls.net

March 23rd, 2006, 16:00	#15
British Pilot Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 110	I am at a Part 141 school, but on training under Part 61....I am using the King DVDs as opposed to the Cessna kit, which I am told is the reason why...I didn't stop to question that, but what I do question is my progress through the syllabus. I am adamant about sitting down with my CFI at the beginning and end of each lesson to discuss what we want to achieve that day, and what we actually achieved at the end of the flight. Those items we did not get to due to weather or time restrictions, I ensure are covered first in our next lesson, and we always reference the PTS every lesson. I also ask my CFI what I should be studying between now and our next lesson, and we are big fans of putting tick marks next to things we need to achieve. I know this is not helpful to you now, but I hope it will be during your Instrument, ME and Commercial, which are also big money certificates and ratings. Take charge and manage your CFI, I am sure he wants you to be nothing but a successful and safe pilot.

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