Purchasing an Airplane

[Spbeyond]

Sorry to lead the thread away again, but I wish I had some of those rental prices you were talking about! But here its rent those or just sit and think about flying. Maybe it would be more logical to buy a plane or a share of a plane. Maybe I can find people looking for like a 1/4 or even less of a share. Thanks guys/gals (as applicable )

[Mr_Creepy]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

What if you just want an airplane?

"Don't get married! Just go down to see Air Force Amy at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch!"

LOL well you've heard the adage,

Rent it if it flys, floats or ...

Well you know

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

LOL well you've heard the adage,

Rent it if it flys, floats or ...

Well you know

Cessna has just started a Lease Program for new aircraft. Havent looked at the numbers, but it is truely something that you can walk away from in the end. Don't think it would be good for an individual but maybe a company.

[Jason]

I just looked it up - to lease a brand new 172R it is $2,219 a month for 60 months...that includes up to 250 hours per year of flight time. So with this lease you're paying a total of $133,140 over 5 years and if you fly the 'maximum' of 250 hours per year that means that you're paying $106.51 per hour for the airplane! Doesn't sound tooooooo bad but don't forget that with this lease you are also responsible for fuel, insurance, and MAINTENANCE!!! What does a new 172 burn?? 8 gallons an hour? That makes the rate about $140 an hour not including maint. and insurance!


The lease rate for a turbo 206 is $5,020 per month - 60 months adds up to $240.96 BEFORE fuel, insurance, and maintenance! Wow!

Jason

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

I remember when I bought an airplane. Before I did it, a friend of mine literally grabbed me by the lapels, shook me, and said "are you out of your mind???"

A year and a half later, when I finally sold the plane at "what I paid for it" (with huge expenses in maintenance and insurance) I went back to him and asked him:

"Why didn't you shake me harder?"

What Mr. Creepy says should be taken very seriously. Maintenance costs can eat you alive. I would interview dozens of owners, previous owners and mechanics of the type of airplane you fly. If you are sticking to a budget in owning this thing...I think you might be surprised how much you will actually end up spending in maintenance alone.

One thing that I see with new owners...is that the first annual can be a nightmare. Single engine Pipers and Cessnas could run you $12k to $20K. Many times the prepurchase inspection is a joke. Other times...the seller will have it annualled by 'his' mechanic...you can imagine that nothing is wrong with it. Right.

When you find the airplane you want to buy....I would spend $1000 bucks to have it annualled by your mechanic before you buy it. It might save you thousands of dollars come your first annual.

If money is an issue...own it with 4 or 5 guys.

[I_Money]

MY QUESTION IS FOR DON - WHY DID YOU SELL THE FLOAT PLANE! I cried when I learnt the news.

[TheFlyingTurkey]

I was looking into buying an airplane too. I was looking at an older C172 or PA28-160 or 180 as you can find them in the $30,000 to $55,000 range. That I could handle, but then you look at annuals costing $1000 when nothing is busted. Multiply that several times when you have to fix something. Add in the insurance payment, fuel cost's, tie-down/hangar... it goes on and on.

Then I thought about the new sport planes, they are cheaper to own and fly but they wont accomplish the mission, to actually fly somewhere with luggage.

Renting is expensive too. Heck, $90 to $110 per hour for a new C172, and if I take it overnight say to Key West, I get charged a minimum hourly rate for each day its gone.

That leaves flying clubs or getting a few partners to buy a plane with. I am looking at a flying club. You pay $45 a month. Then you pay the hourly rate for the aircraft. Currently a PA28-180 goes for $60 hour dry, a C172P goes for $45 hour dry and a PA32RT Lance goes for $102hour dry. The club keeps them well maintained and there are 30 members.

I think I'll start out with the flying club and see how it goes. Oh yeah...I can fly the Civil Air Patrol C172 for $35 hour dry, but you cant take non-CAP members along, or keep it overnight. Bummer.

[B767Driver]

I'm amazed that GA survives, given the cost of participation. Obviously to many, the cost is affordable. To the little guy...well it's gotten too expensive.

Compare GA to boating, for example. Been to a boat show lately? For $185,000 you can buy a new C172. For $100,000 you can buy an amazing cabin cruizer with nicer amenities than many peoples homes...2 cabins, a galley, a lav, shower, and entertainment systems...very little regulatory requirements.

[DE727UPS]

I sold the seaplane cause I never flew it and living on the lake made my trip into town 45 minutes each way. Now, I'm ten minutes from a really cool YMCA and civilization. I got ten acres and a LOT more privacy than when I lived on the lake. I found out I'm not that much of a lake guy.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Tiger815

.

I agree with most of meritflyers points here, but would stay away from anything with a turbo for a first plane.

Turbo was my first plane and after a few lessons it was no big deal at all. After flying one, normally aspirated engines seem like dogs.

[SibePilot311]

Originally Posted by FlyNavy

Are you an AOPA member? They have some of the best resources for ownership from what I've seen!

Not yet, but it is on my "to-do" list. I've reviewed some of their stuff from a buddy who is a member.

[SibePilot311]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

A year and a half later, when I finally sold the plane at "what I paid for it" (with huge expenses in maintenance and insurance

this is what I remembered when I looked into a plane 20 yrs ago, but some of the folks I've talked to recently haven't painted so bleak of a picture. What kind of expenses were you running?

[SibePilot311]

Originally Posted by shooter13

Found the books.

"Airplane Ownership" by Ronald J. Wanttaja

and

"The Illustrated Buyers Guide to Used Airplanes": by Bill Clarke (special Thanks goes out to Eagle for this one!)

If you are serious and have checked out all of the material on the AOPA site, PM me and I will send these to you as long as you promise to pass them along to someone else down the line.

Thanks! I will do a little bit of reading and get back to you. Are those books still in print?

[SibePilot311]

Originally Posted by Tiger815

.

I agree with most of meritflyers points here, but would stay away from anything with a turbo for a first plane. Also the the 182 is a mighty popular model and therefore tends to be on the high end of the price scale. Stone simple planes like the 172, Warrior/Cherokee 180/Archer/Pathfinder (Pipers answer to the 182)are the best bet for a successful 1st airplane ownership experience. I would add to the list the Grumman 4 seaters Traveler, Cheetah and Tiger.

You should also look into securing insurance prior to going very far looking at planes. Insurance companies have had huge losses with 9/11, followed by a couple of bad hurricane years. Underwriting standards have tightened considerably in the last few years. With out some time in type, you will pay higher premiums if they will even offer coverage. I'd suggest discussing what type of plane your interested in and your flight times with a good insurance broker to see if coverage will be available at a manageable cost.

Finally, I have to point out that if the decision to own a plane was always purely financial, very few of us would own. It's nearly impossible to justify on cost alone, but its sure nice being able to show up and fly when you want and keep the plane as long as you like without worry.

There seems to be a comfort factor in buying from someone I know and getting a plane I have flown several times. Right now I fly a Grumman American with a friend and I may have a line on a Cherokee 180.

Any insurance company recommendations? How will flight times affect rates? I have about 5K.

[Mr_Creepy]

Biggest expense was landing gear (I had a Lance.)

I learned my lesson, don't buy anything you can rent!

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

I learned my lesson, don't buy anything you can rent!

While I agree that is true for most situations, it is not an absolute. I was 1/2 owner in a Twin Comanche for a few years, and it worked out pretty well for me. Special circumstances, though:

1. I used the airplane to travel for work. This means that I could put enough hours on every year to keep the per hour cost reasonable, and the company was subsidising most of the aircraft cost this way.

2. I bought 1/2 interest from a guy that had owned that plane for a number of years, and he had all the major bugs already worked out of the plane.

3. My partner was a super guy. We trusted each other's judgement, we agreed on keeping the aircraft in tip-top shape. We were both very, very accomodating of the other's needs when scheduling.

4. We budgeted plenty of money for annuals and for unexpected maintanence.

5. The airplane was a "known quantity" prior to my purchase. My partner had put an enormous amount of money into the plane correcting improperly repaired gear-up damage when he first bought the aircraft. Very expensive lesson that he learned.

6. We budgeted plenty of money for annuals and for unexpected maintanence. Yes, I know this is on the list twice.

In summation John is probably correct. Buying an aircraft is a potentially very expensive decision (often much more expensive than is planned) and in most cases it makes a lot more sense to rent.

[shooter13]

Tenney do you own a home?

I know the airplane ownership book is in print and I think the other one is too.

[MQAAord]

For some people, owning is not necessarily a bad thing. My dad, for example. He already has a 5500 sq' hanger, it's his shop/business with plenty of room for parking. He has an A&P IA so he can do his own maintenance. For him to buy, say a 310 that needs some TLC for, oh, maybe $30k, would be a great deal. With it, he can fly to visit the kids/grandkids in IND and TUL for a heck of a lot less time & effort than driving. Also, he can use it to get to work teaching in JVL. Again, far less time flying from MRJ to JVL than driving!

Owning vs. Renting is like Commuting vs. Living-at-Base. There are good and bad things about both. It's the balance in your own life/situation of those good & bad things that would make it a good or bad thing for YOU.

[Mr_Creepy]

I have been granted the rights to call my area of the Soverign State of Florida my home, yes, but I am not fool enough to say I "own" it

Here's some questions to ask before buying an airplane:

1) Are you required to fly at least 150 hrs a year for your business or job?
2) Is the plane that best fits your mission not rentable?
3) Do you have expendable cash flow to cover about 3X the purchase price for Maintenance, Insurance, Hangar, Recurrent training, etc?

If you can answer YES to these questions then maybe you should buy a plane.

Here's an exercise for you. Do a survey of the aircraft owners at your airport and ask how many of them are willing to sell their aircraft for the right price.

Please post your results! I want to see if things have changed in the last couple of years.

[shooter13]

Great answer John!!!

I'm telling you. It really depends on why you want to own. For me I wanted to build time cheap and I also wanted to be able to go get in the airplane when I wanted and fly, on my own schedule. I likedknowing who had flown it last even if it was a pretty crappy pilot (me.)

If you are trying to save some money for building 150 hours. It probably isn't the best thing. If you can get one or two people to go in on it with you, it can be great. Also, do you need a fast four seat airplane? If not then look at an old 150. Best airplane ever made! I just wish I had bought an aerobat.

[I_Money]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I sold the seaplane cause I never flew it and living on the lake made my trip into town 45 minutes each way. Now, I'm ten minutes from a really cool YMCA and civilization. I got ten acres and a LOT more privacy than when I lived on the lake. I found out I'm not that much of a lake guy.

TBH I hear about the practicality of it - but still living by the lake and having a float plane - that is PLAYBOY!!!

[Doug Taylor]

DE's "Original Gangster", yo.

[I_Money]

I hear you man - basketball court in his living room, and a float plane outside - have you heard about his cars?? He has one for every hour of the day!

[Mr_Creepy]

Originally Posted by shooter13

Great answer John!!!

I'm telling you. It really depends on why you want to own. For me I wanted to build time cheap and I also wanted to be able to go get in the airplane when I wanted and fly, on my own schedule. I likedknowing who had flown it last even if it was a pretty crappy pilot (me.)

If you are trying to save some money for building 150 hours. It probably isn't the best thing. If you can get one or two people to go in on it with you, it can be great. Also, do you need a fast four seat airplane? If not then look at an old 150. Best airplane ever made! I just wish I had bought an aerobat.

I can think back to one good experience. My friend Larry bought a real ramp rat C150 for 'dirt cheap' when he got his comm license. The thing barely burned 6 gals an hour.

We had a friend who was an A&P who also wanted to build time, so he would maintain it for us.

It was fugly, but the engine was sound and it flew fine.

We used to take it up for an hour and a half or so every night, splitting the gas. Built up a lot of time doing it (we were both CFI's by then, so yes, we both logged it as PIC - nobody cared, nobody ever said a word in any airline interview) and had a lot of fun.

It was the only plane I have ever been in that actually had a dash mounted rear view mirror. Why more don't have one of those is a mystery to me.

Larry sold that plane for more than he bought it for, and it didn't cost him much. He sold it to a NW FA who used it to fly to work to build time. Get this, she flew the darned thing from ORL to DTW at least once a week. (Oh my aching butt!)

[Joe]

It was the only plane I have ever been in that actually had a dash mounted rear view mirror. Why more don't have one of those is a mystery to me.

I think it was there so you could see birds catching up to you.