Position and Hold no more?

[Champcar]

We recieved a letter in Prescott from the FAA that as of 3/20 Position and Hold operations will not be allowed. Im not sure if this is just here or through out the nation. Or maybe I missed something in the news.

[Timbuff10]

I have heard this too, though not from anyone official... I have always thought it was weird just letting yourself out to more exposure to be sitting on a runway and not using it. Either takeoff, or hold short so you are not a factor, but don't just sit on a runway with your back facing thousands of pounds of metal and fuel coming at you at a hundred miles an hour. Then again, maybe it is still clear since I turned my back on final?

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Position and hold comes in very handy at large busy airports. While one airplane is slowing on the runway after landing, you can position another airplane on the runway for takeoff, and another airplane is on a 3 mile final for landing. If we lost "position and hold" you would have to increase the distance between aircraft on final to get departures out. This would slow things down quite a bit a busy airports.

[BoilerPilot2007]

Weren't controllers going to stop using position and hold to intentionally create delays - in response to salary concerns?

I don't think the FAA believes there's a safety issue overall.

[Champcar]

Heres the only article I could dig up on it. http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_10a.../191713-1.html

Here are the Controllers complaining
http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/...a_require.html

[Jason]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingTurkey

Position and hold comes in very handy at large busy airports. While one airplane is slowing on the runway after landing, you can position another airplane on the runway for takeoff, and another airplane is on a 3 mile final for landing. If we lost "position and hold" you would have to increase the distance between aircraft on final to get departures out. This would slow things down quite a bit a busy airports.

Agreed! Take away posit. and hold operations at airports like LGA, DCA, MSP (to name just a few) and your hosed - there will be delays like never before. Just like everything else - position and hold is not dangerous if everyone is paying attention.

Jason

[Rugby51]

Is Prescott Towered or Non-Towered?

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by Rugby51

Is Prescott Towered or Non-Towered?

Towered Class D

[DE727UPS]

I predict that if they do take TIPH away, it won't be gone more than a couple of weeks. The extra separation for guys on final and extra ground time for departures will mess up the system pretty bad and the FAA will have to answer to that.

[drl5555]

I remember hearing something a while back that the FAA was going to disallow P&H, however each airport would be able to make a written request to continue the practice if they showed a specific reason why the needed it. Don't remember where I heard that, however.

[hattrick]

as far as i know that is correct. the faa has taken tiph away except for certain airports where it is approved. for example here in fai they still use position and hold on one runway but not the other. so i think each airport must have a reason and get approved before they can use it.
disclaimer: i cant figure out where i got that info so it could be wrong

[AlexF]

I think the FAA wants to rid the position and hold operation. I know about 4 months ago, a letter was sent to all the FBO's etc at my airport (KTOA) explaining that the position and hold procedure will no longer be used. It cited reasons as safety and the FAA. However many airports obviously still continue this. I'll see if I can get ahold of the letter and post it.

[mtsu_av8er]

It's official. Apparently, it has to do with staffing levels in the tower. Apparently, even KBNA is going to stop doing it.

Weird.

[FlyOrDie]

Without position and hold it would be nearly impossible to get out of airports like SAN during rush hour. This summer it took 15 minutes to get out of there and the only reason we finally left is because the controller gave us a position and hold with the requirement to be ready for departure or taxiing clear of the runway. At that airport they do not have the luxury of multiple runways to use for arrivals and departures. I think this issue is just going to create chaos in the system for awhile and then it'll go back to the way it was.

[NuevaLuna]

FAA waives new takeoff safety rule
Busiest airports get temporary exemption

By Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune transportation reporter
Published March 8, 2006


The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday eased up on imminent plans to impose revised airport procedures aimed at reducing the risk of an arriving airplane flying over or landing on top of another plane waiting on a runway to depart.

The changes, which the National Transportation Safety Board had recommended to the FAA over the past six years, were announced last week and had been scheduled to begin March 20, at the peak of the spring-break travel period.

The proposed tightening of rules governing how planes line up at airports for takeoff would appear to help prevent a rare type of accident that could cause hundreds of deaths in a single collision.

The FAA's notice to airport air-traffic control towers last week said mistakes are continuing to occur involving planes taxiing onto an active runway when an approaching plane is about to land on the same runway or an intersecting runway.

On Feb. 17, a controller at Los Angeles International Airport directed three aircraft to use the same runway, the FAA said. A departing SkyWest turboprop was cleared to use a runway on which a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 was about to land. The controller also cleared an Air Canada jet to cross the other end of the same runway.

Other incidents have occurred in recent years in Salt Lake City, Ft. Lauderdale and at Midway Airport in Chicago, officials said.

But the FAA, reacting to related safety issues and concerns about flight delays ballooning, told the airlines, the air-traffic controllers and pilots unions on Tuesday that it would grant at least temporary waivers from the new rules, starting with the nation's 35 busiest airports.

The FAA won't force airports to change their takeoff procedures, "but by March 20 airport towers will have to explain to us why they want to continue using it," said Russell Chew, the FAA's chief operating officer.

As a result, no immediate changes are expected at O'Hare International Airport, Midway or Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee, officials said. But several hundred medium-size and smaller airports could lose an air-traffic tool they have used to keep flights bound for larger airports on schedule.

The controllers union said the FAA's planned change would add to congestion at already crowded airports, reducing the number of planes able to arrive and depart each hour by as much as 20 percent.

Under existing rules, a plane that is No. 2 in line for departure may taxi onto the runway and stop as soon as the plane in front starts its takeoff roll. Once the first plane is airborne and at least 6,000 feet down the runway, the second plane begins its takeoff roll and the next plane in line on the taxiway moves into takeoff position on the runway.

Air-traffic controllers call the procedure "locked and loaded," because it facilitates launching planes at tight intervals and keeps airports running efficiently.

Under the revisions the FAA was set to impose, planes in the No. 2 departure position would not be permitted to begin taxiing onto the runway until after the plane taking off in front was airborne.

The controllers union, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, contends the FAA overreacted to a small number of high-profile cases in which human error caused arriving and departing planes to get perilously close to each other.

Controllers said the FAA's fix could unintentionally intensify risks on runways used for landings and takeoffs. Such a scenario would involve a controller directing a plane waiting on a taxiway to proceed to the runway for takeoff while an approaching plane was still 5 miles from touching down. A miscommunication between controller and pilot, or a delay in the plane entering the runway, could lead to a close call between the arriving and departing planes, potentially even a fly-over incident that could lead to a crash.

"You almost must already have the pilot on the runway in position so he is ready to roll when you tell him to," said Doug Fralick, director of safety and technology at the controllers union. "If the plane is still sitting on the taxiway, you lose your predictability because it takes time for the engines to spool up power and the plane to get into position."

----------

jhilkevitch@tribune.com







Copyright © 2006, Chicago Tribune

[sopdan]

Word for us today was that in order to use pos. and hold, the tower had to have a local controller, ground controller, and supervisor on duty at all times. Needless to say the contract towers probably aren't gonna be able to do that (our's for sure). Oddly enough they said that only larger airports would be able to have those staffing levels... while (from what I was told) the larger airports are where the problems have been occurring. hmmmm.....

[n57flyguy]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingTurkey

Position and hold comes in very handy at large busy airports. While one airplane is slowing on the runway after landing, you can position another airplane on the runway for takeoff, and another airplane is on a 3 mile final for landing. If we lost "position and hold" you would have to increase the distance between aircraft on final to get departures out. This would slow things down quite a bit a busy airports.

Yes, controlers get upset, espeacially at KJFK, when you dont read back Hold short instructions, whatever the reasons I think Its stupid to let that go.

[n57flyguy]

I dont like it.

[meritflyer]

Do you personally fly out of JFK? Why wouldnt they be ticked if you didnt read back position and hold instructions?? It could be a major major safety concern if you didnt.

[NightCargo]

If "position and hold" is really going away, I hope I never, ever see PHL again. That place is such a cluster as it is that this will bring the takeoff que to its knees. Not that PHL is (or ever has been) known for its stellar on-time performance, but this will be hysterical. Too bad I don't get paid by the hour anymore!

NightCargo

[shinysideup]

I have a few friends who work in KHYA tower (Contract). The way I understand the explanation, the FAA requires the tower to come up with a set procedure to allow the TIPH procedure, which this particular tower did not get approved to do. However, KACK, which is FAA run, had their procedure approved and they still use the TIPH. If done correctly TIPH is safe. It keeps flow of traffic much smoother. Now, we have the problem of leaving much more room between aircraft on final, and if someone takes too much time to get off the runway, they will have the second aircraft circle, or go around to get the traffic out. Which I believe to be a larger safety hazard. If they get rid of it completely there will be delays like none have seen in the past.

[pilot602]

Yeah we're not geting P&H at VGT. Dont really care as its more time on the clock.

[Champcar]

Although the FAA does not have its dual mandate it sure reaks of it with every decision the FAA makes. The FAA should only care about the ground safety, not how long your going to be on the ground. But in reality it has to.

[Stone Cold]

KORL is not allowing P&H...got chewed by the controller tonight for saying those words...we were cleared to taxi onto the runway and let them know when we had visual on preceding traffic (a helo). The sad part is, our company never mentioned it to us at all. The only way I knew it was supposed to happen was of this thread, and I didn't think it had already started. Go figure.

TX

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by txpilot

The sad part is, our company never mentioned it to us at all. The only way I knew it was supposed to happen was of this thread, and I didn't think it had already started. Go figure.

TX

I thought it doesn't go into effect until 3/20?

I hadn't heard about it either until I read this.