What happened at O'hare?

[BCTAv8r]

So yesterday my family and I were on United 1111 from YYZ-ORD and after all the passangers loaded and the emergency briefings were made, the Captain announced that we had a delayed departure till' 19:29. I tuned into channel 9 to hear the ATC frequency and they were talking about all the aircraft at O'Hare being grounded because someone cut the TRACOM cable. I'm not too sure what TRACOM is but we were grounded for about 2 1/2 hours. We then proceded to ORD where due to ATC problems, we lost our connection to PBI and had to stay in a hotel over night till the earliest TED flight to PBI was avaiable.

It was ridiculous though how they wouldn't give us a voucher for the hotel when it wasn't our fault we lost the connection. I understand they can't give it to everyone as it would be a financial burden, but it wasn't our fault at all. The manager at the customer service desk told us that "The pilots didn't know what they were talking about and they have no way to know what is going on here at O'Hare" when we told him that the crew had given us new connection gates and when we got there the flights had left at least 30 minutes earlier. This guy was obviously an idiot to say such a thing.

Back to the topic, anyone have a clue what went on at ORD yesterday?

[Chris_Ford]

I'm convinced that ORD TRACON (Terminal Radar Approach CONtrol) has a hamster-wheel setup, as when I was there about a month ago, they had the same problem (and I was sitting up front so this wasn't some BS line) that resulted in us sitting at the runway ready to go for around an hour.

As for the hotel thing, it wasn't the airlines fault, why should they have to pay?

[BCTAv8r]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

As for the hotel thing, it wasn't the airlines fault, why should they have to pay?

Well, the crew said that all connections were re-scheduled and gave us gates and departure times for each connection. This was on the ground while on taxi to the terminal. About 10 minutes later we were checking the departures screen and there was no flight to PBI. We went to the gate and there was no flight. We asked a gate agent and she said the flight had left 30 minutes prior to our arrival.

It's not our fault. We paid to get home at that flight and expected to do so. If there are problems, the airline should make an effort to accomodate the passengers till they can get the people home. We had a 3 year old with us, there was no way we could have stayed at the terminal.

[SUSPilot]

But again it was not the airlines fault. Why should United compensate you because of something beyond their control that caused you to miss your connection.

[asl]

All airlines are liable for accomodation and/or drinks/meals if flights are delayed or connections missed, no matter whether it is the airline's fault or ATC's fault, at least that is the rule in Europe!

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by asl

All airlines are liable for accomodation and/or drinks/meals if flights are delayed or connections missed, no matter whether it is the airline's fault or ATC's fault, at least that is the rule in Europe!

Which is why airlines are being a little less conservative about flying (see BAW flight that continued after losing an engine shortly after takeoff (LAX?) to London.

That's not the rule in the US, and it shouldn't be. If bad weather cancels a flight, or ATC delays cause you to miss a flight, it's not the airline's fault.

[Brazilian_Pilot]

I watched on the news yesterday that one of the control facilities went dead, so they had to switch all traffic to another facility, which could not accomodate all the flights.

[Bog]

What happened at ORD?

They built an airport. That's all it took.

I highly recommend to NOT travel through that airport (or PHL). You're just asking for it. Oh, and yes, while it really does suck that you had to pay for a hotel, it's beyond the control of the airline and therefore they are not liable (nor should they be). Again, it sucks, but it's the joy of travel.

[BCTAv8r]

Originally Posted by asl

All airlines are liable for accomodation and/or drinks/meals if flights are delayed or connections missed, no matter whether it is the airline's fault or ATC's fault, at least that is the rule in Europe!

That's how I thought it was here. The way I see it is that the airline is providing a service to it's customers. Our flight was YYZ-PBI with connection to ORD. Their job was to get us from YYZ-PBI, and they only got us to ORD on the first day. So it's not their fault, then they should just tell them to try again tommorow as if we had accomodations set in our connection. We had no car and no hotel, it was just a connection.

From start to finish, the airline has responsobility of the passengers, or at least they should.

[Chris_Ford]

Did you get back to PBI? Yes.... So then they held up their end of the bargain. What you're saying is akin to, "Well, I bought a car to transport myself, then a tree fell on it, so GM should give me a new car"... It doesn't make much sense

[KBUF]

Unfortunatley, fine print is just that, FINE. However, the terms of contract for an airline will be on thier website, your ticket jacket or whatever...they have to make this information available to the customers, whether or not the print is hard to read.

Too many times while working gate have I had to argue with angry customers about hotel accomodations on delays that are not our fault (weather, atc). But, if there is a mechanical problem or a crew issue or something that is the airlines fault, you are entitled to accomodations and other compensation if need be. That's how it is.

[tripleseven]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Did you get back to PBI? Yes.... So then they held up their end of the bargain. What you're saying is akin to, "Well, I bought a car to transport myself, then a tree fell on it, so GM should give me a new car"... It doesn't make much sense

Right on!

[AlexF]

I always felt sorry for the gate agents who had to deal with delays and all the complaining passengers. When the pilot delays a flight, lets say, due to weather. He isn't delaying it because he hates all the passengers (although he may) and wants them to suffer (again, although he may), he delays it for the protection and safety of himself and every single complaining passenger on the aircraft. People don't seem to understand airplanes, they're worried that it will break apart and fall out of the sky during normal flights, yet other times when it's snowing 10ft/hour and hurricane force winds, they think an aircraft is invincible. Go figure!

[AlexF]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Did you get back to PBI? Yes.... So then they held up their end of the bargain. What you're saying is akin to, "Well, I bought a car to transport myself, then a tree fell on it, so GM should give me a new car"... It doesn't make much sense

Exactly! Except I don't trust GM cars, I perfer European!

[tripleseven]

Originally Posted by KBUF

Unfortunatley, fine print is just that, FINE. However, the terms of contract for an airline will be on thier website, your ticket jacket or whatever...they have to make this information available to the customers, whether or not the print is hard to read.

Too many times while working gate have I had to argue with angry customers about hotel accomodations on delays that are not our fault (weather, atc). But, if there is a mechanical problem or a crew issue or something that is the airlines fault, you are entitled to accomodations and other compensation if need be. That's how it is.

YES!! It is sad when things like this happen, but the contract of carriage for all airlines is disseminated in all forms of media. It's the agents and pax responsibility to know and understand that contract.

As a word of advice, when a situation like this happens again, give reservations a call during or after the rebooking process. Its a good way to have backup plan on top of your backup...if that makes sense.

[KBUF]

The thing that really seems to calm people down and make our job a little easier is this...

At times, there are delays in excess of two hours. If this happens, we will do "gate trivia" where each of us at the gate makes up any random trivia question. The catch is, if there are business class seats available, we give them away to the ones who answer correctly first. After business class seats run out, we may start giving 25 dollar voutures for future travel if the delay is bad enough.

People seem to forget about thier jobs or the kids they have to get home to at that point (usually they exaggerate thier situations probably). Its amazing how easily a group is entertained.

[BCTAv8r]

I completely understand everyone's argument. But is it right for an airline to leave passangers "hanging"? So if it took a whole week to get us to PBI it would be allright for us to stay at the airport for a week just because at the end of the week we'd be at PBI?

I know I won't win this one as 98% of you guys disagree. But I just thought it was unfair that the connection being lost was beyond our control and they couldn't at least put us in a hotel. This has never happened before though so maybe I'm just not used to this air travel thing.

[Goldmember]

To get back to the question of the post, a phone crew working in the area cut a feed so the tower at O'hare couldn't contact approach at Elgin. ATC backup systems kicked in but for safety procedures, ATC separated approaching aircraft an extra five miles which of course, causes mad delays. This has been all over CLTV so you must consider the source when reading this...cheers.

Oh and:

"I highly recommend to NOT travel through that airport [ORD](or PHL). You're just asking for it."

That might be a little difficult because of it being the busiest airport in the world. Considering the traffic and weather up here, I think they do a pretty good job.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by BCTAv8r

I completely understand everyone's argument. But is it right for an airline to leave passangers "hanging"? So if it took a whole week to get us to PBI it would be allright for us to stay at the airport for a week just because at the end of the week we'd be at PBI?

If a hurricane hit PBI, would you want them to land there amidst the storm? Or would you be willing to wait a week (it's a hell of a hurricane)? Do you fault the airline for selling tickets during hurricane season to Florida? If it took a week and wasn't their fault, they shouldn't have to pay. This is incredibly ironic coming from someone who wants to be a pilot. You're asking for a hotel room on your $150 ticket to Toronto... That's (even at crew rates) probably $60+, and then you'll go over to the next thread and talk about how pilots shouldn't have to take pay cuts... Well, if mgmt has to start paying for hotel rooms, you can guess whose salary it will come from.

But I just thought it was unfair that the connection being lost was beyond our control and they couldn't at least put us in a hotel. This has never happened before though so maybe I'm just not used to this air travel thing.

Yes it's unfair. Life is unfair. Yes, you're not use to this air travel thing

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

To get back to the question of the post, a phone crew working in the area cut a feed so the tower at O'hare couldn't contact approach at Elgin. ATC backup systems kicked in but for safety procedures, ATC separated approaching aircraft an extra five miles which of course, causes mad delays. This has been all over CLTV so you must consider the source when reading this...cheers.

So, tower is in Chicago (naturally, on field), approach is in Elgin, and Center is in Aurora? Jeez, so much for simplification

[AlexF]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Yes it's unfair. Life is unfair.

Especially when your subjected to racial profiling.

[BCTAv8r]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

If a hurricane hit PBI, would you want them to land there amidst the storm? Or would you be willing to wait a week (it's a hell of a hurricane)? Do you fault the airline for selling tickets during hurricane season to Florida? If it took a week and wasn't their fault, they shouldn't have to pay. This is incredibly ironic coming from someone who wants to be a pilot. You're asking for a hotel room on your $150 ticket to Toronto... That's (even at crew rates) probably $60+, and then you'll go over to the next thread and talk about how pilots shouldn't have to take pay cuts... Well, if mgmt has to start paying for hotel rooms, you can guess whose salary it will come from.



Yes it's unfair. Life is unfair. Yes, you're not use to this air travel thing

Paying for my hotel is not what's gonna cause pilots to take another paycut. Management taking huge bonuses will.

Your hurricane argument is not that good. There is no such thing as "telephone crew cuts ATC cables" season. Hurricanes can be tracked and people can work around them, while these things happen without notice.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by BCTAv8r

Paying for my hotel is not what's gonna cause pilots to take another paycut. Management taking huge bonuses will.

So let's take YOUR hotel room, multiply it by an average 100 people a day (due to various weather phenomenon, throughout the whole system) and multiply by an average of $60 for a crew rate hotel room (again, not sure if this is fair), then multiply it out for a year.
$2.19 million dollars. Out of the goodness of their heart. Because of a problem someone else caused? Management won't give pilots an extra $1/hr, why would they do this?

Your hurricane argument is not that good. There is no such thing as "telephone crew cuts ATC cables" season. Hurricanes can be tracked and people can work around them, while these things happen without notice.

Actually, what you're saying reinforces my point. It was unforseen and the airline had no control over the situation. Why should they be punished? Would you rather them have gone into the radarless ATC environment and run a higher risk of a midair?

[BCTAv8r]

How am I re-inforcing your point? One can get a somewhat accurate Hurricane prediction within about 4 days of it affecting anyone. If we had this long to plan for what happened at O'hare you ca be certain we would have changed our plans.

Also, I am not complaining that we sat on the ground for 2 hours. I am grateful we were on the ground and not in the air. But after the crew told us that everything had slowed down at ORD and that the connections were re-scheduled, they even went as far as giving us flight numbers and gets for each connection, but when we got there the flight had left a while earlier.

Perhaps the gate agent was right and the flight crew had no clue what they were talking about? ?

[Kingairer]

I am not sure why you keep going back to the crew? UAL has an auto rebook thing if it sees people are going to miss their connections. Apparently they arrived in the gate later then expected and you missed the last flight of the day. The CREW has very little to do with it, and they fact that they even spent to worrying about it is a bonus.