Snowing/Icing

AA · February 25th, 2003, 10:52

I live in Texas where it is snowing, well since it is Texas I would not call it snow really, but rather ice. Does anybody have any good, or interesting stories about aviation during these kind of conditions?

FlyChicaga · February 25th, 2003, 11:54

Yeah, I usually stay inside.

I've jumpseated through some pretty nice snowstorms. One the Captain flicked on the landing lights and goes "WARP SPEED!!!" (looked like Star Wars)

pavelump · February 25th, 2003, 11:55

If you read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann, there are some interesting stories about icing. If they don't convince you to be wary of flying in icing conditions, I don't know what will.

Dave

PurduePilot · February 25th, 2003, 13:28

Maybe I'm just a little conservative, but I never go flying in the winter in IFR conditions.

I, however, have a friend who is pretty much gung ho about it. He's a CFI who's flown King Airs and Caravans. Sometimes, I have to put the brakes on say to him, "I don't think this is such a good idea."

I view icing as a death sentence whereas he views it as a minor annoyance.

Alchemy · February 25th, 2003, 13:33

I probably wouldn't go up if I'll have to cruise within 1000 ft of the freezing level and there is forecast IMC for my route of flight. That is assuming, of course, that the aircraft I'm flying doesn't have any kind of anti-ice or deicing system.

Had to scrub a flight from AUS yesterday because it freezing at the surfcace with Freezing Mist, light rain, ovc at 1,200 AGL.

Ophir · February 25th, 2003, 18:54

I don't think it was being cavalier, but I flew from RNO to SLC yesterday all in IMC. I did an extensive preflight weather briefing and then headed East. I got into IMC quickly and just kept watching the tire (Cessna 172S) for accumulation of snow and ice. It never built up. Based on one PIREP and the MEA for the area, I was up to 13,000 and on top for a bit. Once there what little, stress little, ice there was on the tire sublimated away.

Anyway, 3.4 hours of actual with no ice build up. I don't know if I would be so quick to dismiss days with IMC and temps below freezing, especially if the temps are 11 degree Celcius and below. Just be ready to turn around and really stay on top of the weather (figuratively and literally).

Alchemy · February 25th, 2003, 19:18

I agree with you ophir, when it's below -10 the risk of icing isn't so bad, and assuming there weren't any PIREP's, SIGMET's, or AIRMET's which warned of Ice, I'd probably strongly consider making a flight in such conditions if I needed to.

jtrain609 · February 25th, 2003, 20:13

The problem lies in places like Michigan, where starting in December and through maybe February or March there is a constant Airmet out for icing in clouds from ground level to 10,000'. That turns all those cute puffy little clouds floating around into floating death blobs waiting to strike. If the temp is below freezing on the ground you'll never shed any ice you get on the plane. I won't touch clouds in the winter inless I have ice protection equipment, not that I've even flown a plane with such gadets. As an example for the tempature problem, the high tomorrow is going to be 25 deg so any flight into IMC is asking for some serious trouble in these parts.

Cheers

John Herreshoff

CapnJim · February 25th, 2003, 22:20

Hey AA- what part of Texas are you in? I'm at the ATP Dallas location, and it is an absolute ######storm over here. Forget driving- you can barely walk! An inch thick of frozen sleet on everything, and more freezing rain due for tonight. Arlington Municipal, where we fly out of, is obviously closed, though DFW seems to be fine with all thier slick de-icing equipment. I live just south of there, and theres no shortage of folks dropping out of the soup on the ILS 35L.

Doug Taylor · February 25th, 2003, 22:32

DFW! Ack!

My last leg from PHX to DFW on monday, we hit ice from INK continuously until we were on a 15 mile final for 36L.

There was lightning so we turned on the radar, but at that point, the icing had covered our radome so the radar was more or less useless so we just shut it off.

On final approach, most of the cockpit windows except the three up front were completely iced over and the winds were going from a strong left crosswind, to a strong right crosswind and kept changing, even during the transition to landing on 36L.

The bad thing with DFW is that the ILS for 36L is offset almost 2 degrees so when I popped out of the clouds about 500 AGL, I had to drift left to get on the extended centerline of the runway. Luckily, I had a right crosswind at that point.

Once we landed, holy crap, ICE big time. We taxiied about as slow as I've ever in a MD-88 and the lines for the de-ice ramp were amazingly large.

We finally get to the E concourse and the jetway driver had to crack the ice and chip a little to get access to the door handle in order to open the door.

We got thru deplaning so I tried to hit the American C concourse to get home and the trains were shut down because of the freezing rain so I hopped on the intraterminal bus.

American boarded at 7:30pm and we didnt' get out of the deicing queue until, and get this, 3:00am. I got back to PHX at 4:45 and was in bed by 5am. Ack!

Alchemy · February 25th, 2003, 22:35

Sounds like a rough day doug. Those ice storms in north texas can be pretty rough, although we even got it pretty bad down in Austin this time.

CapnJim · February 26th, 2003, 10:57

Geez man, you have my sympathies! I couldn't imagine having to land in this mess. A couple of guys came in to GKY in one of ATPs Seminoles on Monday (no deicing equip) and were reporting fuselage dents and paint missing from ice flung off of the propellers- no fun man!
Be safe, and good flying.

Doug Taylor · February 26th, 2003, 11:05

When I flew the Beech 1900, ice flying off the propellers sounded like someone banging loudly on the fuselage. We had kevlar shielding adjacent to seat 1A and 1C to protect against ice damage.

davetheflyer · February 26th, 2003, 13:58

I did a flight from IAD to PIT recently in which we picked up a lot of ice. It was the first time that I had seen the heated windshields start to ice over.

My airplane sat outside for two days in Richmond during the big blizzard a couple of weeks ago. In RIC, there was as much freezing rain as there was snow, so when we got back to the plane it was totally encased in about a 1/4" of clear ice. It usually takes us 10-15 minutes to deice, but this time it took close to an hour.

I will say that I am impressed as to how soft a landing can be on a snow covered runway. You can really get some greaser landings.

AA · February 26th, 2003, 14:15

CapnJim, I live in Austin TX. For the past two days we have had a substantial ice on everything even the roads. Eventhough three days ago it was 75 degrees f., and sunny.

Alchemy · February 26th, 2003, 14:26

Yeah AA, from what I've heard the only thing that saved the roads around here from even worse conditions was the fact that the ground was still warm from that 80 degree day on sunday.

AA · February 26th, 2003, 14:36

Alchemy, that is what I figured. It has been a while since since it has been this bad, at least a couple of years. How was ABIA, do you know?

CapnJim · February 26th, 2003, 16:15

AA- Yeah, the ice is pretty bad here too. It's melting pretty good now, but it's supposed to freeze over again tonight and be a REAL nightmare.
Austin's a kickass town. I have a good friend there that I visit from time to time, and there is no shortage of places to go, girls to chase, beer to drink, etc. Much, much different than DFW, where it's pretty much sports bars and techno clubs.

Hmmmm, those prop tips on the Beech 1900 are going a goodly percentage of the speed of sound... that means the ice comes off at close to that speed... and that aluminum can't be that thick... I bet you were glad about the kevlar!! :

Alchemy · February 26th, 2003, 17:43

I think about half the flights out of ABIA had been cancelled, if for no other reason than most of AA and Southwest's flights are to the DFW area, which had even worse ice than austin.

Also, I heard that they had run out of De-Icer at ABIA at some point yesterday.

AA · February 26th, 2003, 19:30

Ya I heard the same, I bet that was rough! And Doug, man, that is terrible, especially when you were so close to being to the end of your trip and being home.

Mavmb · February 26th, 2003, 21:06

How much icing can the MD 90 take Doug? That sounds like you were dealing with alot on that ilsapproach. If severe icing is in the forecast do you have to divert to a different aiport or wait until the severe icing is gone before your allowed to take off?

Snow · February 26th, 2003, 22:52

[ QUOTE ]
When I flew the Beech 1900, ice flying off the propellers sounded like someone banging loudly on the fuselage. We had kevlar shielding adjacent to seat 1A and 1C to protect against ice damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, so I guess that explains why there were no windows ajecent to the props on the Saab 340 I was flying on. I had the window just behind the blank. I was thinking "those props are sure spinning fast, I wouldn't want a blade to close loose, espically where I'm sitting"

I've sat in Denver getting de-iced in a snow storm a few times, I'd have to say it's pretty cool to watch, seems like somthing out of a sci-fi movie. This was all at night too, with floodlights and steam going everywhere, very cool.

Yeah ditto Doug, is it possible for ice to become a threat to the MD-88/90 or any other comerical, de- ice equiped plane?

Doug Taylor · February 27th, 2003, 00:14

[ QUOTE ]
How much icing can the MD 90 take Doug? That sounds like you were dealing with alot on that ilsapproach. If severe icing is in the forecast do you have to divert to a different aiport or wait until the severe icing is gone before your allowed to take off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not supposed to fly in severe icing!

Actually, once we start picking up anything other than light icing, we'll generally try and get out of it even though we're capable of lumbering along with the wing/engine anti-ice activated.

I'm not really sure how much the -90 can take because basically, once we see a trace of ice in the cockpit, we activate the equipment.

Doug Taylor · February 27th, 2003, 00:14

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah ditto Doug, is it possible for ice to become a threat to the MD-88/90 or any other comerical, de- ice equiped plane?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah!

Just ask USAir about that one!

Snow · February 27th, 2003, 05:31

ah, need to go browsing the NTSB crash reports for that one?

February 25th, 2003, 10:52	#1
AA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 127	Snowing/Icing I live in Texas where it is snowing, well since it is Texas I would not call it snow really, but rather ice. Does anybody have any good, or interesting stories about aviation during these kind of conditions?

February 25th, 2003, 11:54	#2
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,821	Re: Snowing/Icing Yeah, I usually stay inside. I've jumpseated through some pretty nice snowstorms. One the Captain flicked on the landing lights and goes "WARP SPEED!!!" (looked like Star Wars)

February 25th, 2003, 11:55	#3
pavelump Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 790	Re: Snowing/Icing If you read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann, there are some interesting stories about icing. If they don't convince you to be wary of flying in icing conditions, I don't know what will. Dave

February 25th, 2003, 13:28	#4
PurduePilot Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Sherborn, Massachusetts USA Posts: 1,309	Re: Snowing/Icing Maybe I'm just a little conservative, but I never go flying in the winter in IFR conditions. I, however, have a friend who is pretty much gung ho about it. He's a CFI who's flown King Airs and Caravans. Sometimes, I have to put the brakes on say to him, "I don't think this is such a good idea." I view icing as a death sentence whereas he views it as a minor annoyance.

February 25th, 2003, 13:33	#5
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,752	Re: Snowing/Icing I probably wouldn't go up if I'll have to cruise within 1000 ft of the freezing level and there is forecast IMC for my route of flight. That is assuming, of course, that the aircraft I'm flying doesn't have any kind of anti-ice or deicing system. Had to scrub a flight from AUS yesterday because it freezing at the surfcace with Freezing Mist, light rain, ovc at 1,200 AGL.

February 25th, 2003, 18:54	#6
Ophir Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: was Ophir, CO, now in SLC! Posts: 1,477	Re: Snowing/Icing I don't think it was being cavalier, but I flew from RNO to SLC yesterday all in IMC. I did an extensive preflight weather briefing and then headed East. I got into IMC quickly and just kept watching the tire (Cessna 172S) for accumulation of snow and ice. It never built up. Based on one PIREP and the MEA for the area, I was up to 13,000 and on top for a bit. Once there what little, stress little, ice there was on the tire sublimated away. Anyway, 3.4 hours of actual with no ice build up. I don't know if I would be so quick to dismiss days with IMC and temps below freezing, especially if the temps are 11 degree Celcius and below. Just be ready to turn around and really stay on top of the weather (figuratively and literally).

February 25th, 2003, 19:18	#7
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,752	Re: Snowing/Icing I agree with you ophir, when it's below -10 the risk of icing isn't so bad, and assuming there weren't any PIREP's, SIGMET's, or AIRMET's which warned of Ice, I'd probably strongly consider making a flight in such conditions if I needed to.

February 25th, 2003, 20:13	#8
jtrain609 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT Posts: 12,322	Re: Snowing/Icing The problem lies in places like Michigan, where starting in December and through maybe February or March there is a constant Airmet out for icing in clouds from ground level to 10,000'. That turns all those cute puffy little clouds floating around into floating death blobs waiting to strike. If the temp is below freezing on the ground you'll never shed any ice you get on the plane. I won't touch clouds in the winter inless I have ice protection equipment, not that I've even flown a plane with such gadets. As an example for the tempature problem, the high tomorrow is going to be 25 deg so any flight into IMC is asking for some serious trouble in these parts. Cheers John Herreshoff

February 25th, 2003, 22:20	#9
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: All up in Cantubury, tellin' tales. Posts: 4,444	Re: Snowing/Icing Hey AA- what part of Texas are you in? I'm at the ATP Dallas location, and it is an absolute ######storm over here. Forget driving- you can barely walk! An inch thick of frozen sleet on everything, and more freezing rain due for tonight. Arlington Municipal, where we fly out of, is obviously closed, though DFW seems to be fine with all thier slick de-icing equipment. I live just south of there, and theres no shortage of folks dropping out of the soup on the ILS 35L.

February 25th, 2003, 22:32	#10
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,600 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Snowing/Icing DFW! Ack! My last leg from PHX to DFW on monday, we hit ice from INK continuously until we were on a 15 mile final for 36L. There was lightning so we turned on the radar, but at that point, the icing had covered our radome so the radar was more or less useless so we just shut it off. On final approach, most of the cockpit windows except the three up front were completely iced over and the winds were going from a strong left crosswind, to a strong right crosswind and kept changing, even during the transition to landing on 36L. The bad thing with DFW is that the ILS for 36L is offset almost 2 degrees so when I popped out of the clouds about 500 AGL, I had to drift left to get on the extended centerline of the runway. Luckily, I had a right crosswind at that point. Once we landed, holy crap, ICE big time. We taxiied about as slow as I've ever in a MD-88 and the lines for the de-ice ramp were amazingly large. We finally get to the E concourse and the jetway driver had to crack the ice and chip a little to get access to the door handle in order to open the door. We got thru deplaning so I tried to hit the American C concourse to get home and the trains were shut down because of the freezing rain so I hopped on the intraterminal bus. American boarded at 7:30pm and we didnt' get out of the deicing queue until, and get this, 3:00am. I got back to PHX at 4:45 and was in bed by 5am. Ack!

February 25th, 2003, 22:35	#11
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,752	Re: Snowing/Icing Sounds like a rough day doug. Those ice storms in north texas can be pretty rough, although we even got it pretty bad down in Austin this time.

February 26th, 2003, 10:57	#12
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: All up in Cantubury, tellin' tales. Posts: 4,444	Re: Snowing/Icing Geez man, you have my sympathies! I couldn't imagine having to land in this mess. A couple of guys came in to GKY in one of ATPs Seminoles on Monday (no deicing equip) and were reporting fuselage dents and paint missing from ice flung off of the propellers- no fun man! Be safe, and good flying.

February 26th, 2003, 11:05	#13
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,600 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Snowing/Icing When I flew the Beech 1900, ice flying off the propellers sounded like someone banging loudly on the fuselage. We had kevlar shielding adjacent to seat 1A and 1C to protect against ice damage.

February 26th, 2003, 13:58	#14
davetheflyer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: KATL, Georgia, Tennessee Posts: 1,016	Re: Snowing/Icing I did a flight from IAD to PIT recently in which we picked up a lot of ice. It was the first time that I had seen the heated windshields start to ice over. My airplane sat outside for two days in Richmond during the big blizzard a couple of weeks ago. In RIC, there was as much freezing rain as there was snow, so when we got back to the plane it was totally encased in about a 1/4" of clear ice. It usually takes us 10-15 minutes to deice, but this time it took close to an hour. I will say that I am impressed as to how soft a landing can be on a snow covered runway. You can really get some greaser landings.

February 26th, 2003, 14:15	#15
AA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 127	Re: Snowing/Icing CapnJim, I live in Austin TX. For the past two days we have had a substantial ice on everything even the roads. Eventhough three days ago it was 75 degrees f., and sunny.

February 26th, 2003, 14:26	#16
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,752	Re: Snowing/Icing Yeah AA, from what I've heard the only thing that saved the roads around here from even worse conditions was the fact that the ground was still warm from that 80 degree day on sunday.

February 26th, 2003, 14:36	#17
AA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 127	Re: Snowing/Icing Alchemy, that is what I figured. It has been a while since since it has been this bad, at least a couple of years. How was ABIA, do you know?

February 26th, 2003, 16:15	#18
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: All up in Cantubury, tellin' tales. Posts: 4,444	Re: Snowing/Icing AA- Yeah, the ice is pretty bad here too. It's melting pretty good now, but it's supposed to freeze over again tonight and be a REAL nightmare. Austin's a kickass town. I have a good friend there that I visit from time to time, and there is no shortage of places to go, girls to chase, beer to drink, etc. Much, much different than DFW, where it's pretty much sports bars and techno clubs. Hmmmm, those prop tips on the Beech 1900 are going a goodly percentage of the speed of sound... that means the ice comes off at close to that speed... and that aluminum can't be that thick... I bet you were glad about the kevlar!! :

February 26th, 2003, 17:43	#19
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,752	Re: Snowing/Icing I think about half the flights out of ABIA had been cancelled, if for no other reason than most of AA and Southwest's flights are to the DFW area, which had even worse ice than austin. Also, I heard that they had run out of De-Icer at ABIA at some point yesterday.

February 26th, 2003, 19:30	#20
AA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 127	Re: Snowing/Icing Ya I heard the same, I bet that was rough! And Doug, man, that is terrible, especially when you were so close to being to the end of your trip and being home.

February 26th, 2003, 21:06	#21
Mavmb Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,169	Re: Snowing/Icing How much icing can the MD 90 take Doug? That sounds like you were dealing with alot on that ilsapproach. If severe icing is in the forecast do you have to divert to a different aiport or wait until the severe icing is gone before your allowed to take off?

February 26th, 2003, 22:52	#22
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 869	Re: Snowing/Icing [ QUOTE ] When I flew the Beech 1900, ice flying off the propellers sounded like someone banging loudly on the fuselage. We had kevlar shielding adjacent to seat 1A and 1C to protect against ice damage. [/ QUOTE ] Ah, so I guess that explains why there were no windows ajecent to the props on the Saab 340 I was flying on. I had the window just behind the blank. I was thinking "those props are sure spinning fast, I wouldn't want a blade to close loose, espically where I'm sitting" I've sat in Denver getting de-iced in a snow storm a few times, I'd have to say it's pretty cool to watch, seems like somthing out of a sci-fi movie. This was all at night too, with floodlights and steam going everywhere, very cool. Yeah ditto Doug, is it possible for ice to become a threat to the MD-88/90 or any other comerical, de- ice equiped plane?

February 27th, 2003, 00:14	#23
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,600 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Snowing/Icing [ QUOTE ] How much icing can the MD 90 take Doug? That sounds like you were dealing with alot on that ilsapproach. If severe icing is in the forecast do you have to divert to a different aiport or wait until the severe icing is gone before your allowed to take off? [/ QUOTE ] Not supposed to fly in severe icing! Actually, once we start picking up anything other than light icing, we'll generally try and get out of it even though we're capable of lumbering along with the wing/engine anti-ice activated. I'm not really sure how much the -90 can take because basically, once we see a trace of ice in the cockpit, we activate the equipment.

February 27th, 2003, 00:14	#24
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,600 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Snowing/Icing [ QUOTE ] Yeah ditto Doug, is it possible for ice to become a threat to the MD-88/90 or any other comerical, de- ice equiped plane? [/ QUOTE ] Oh yeah! Just ask USAir about that one!

February 27th, 2003, 05:31	#25
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 869	Re: Snowing/Icing ah, need to go browsing the NTSB crash reports for that one?

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