UPS to lay off 100 pilots

A300Capt · February 8th, 2003, 08:20

UPS to lay off 100 pilots
By Joshua Hammann, Associated Press, 2/7/2003
LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) United Parcel Service will lay off 100 pilots by this fall, the Independent Pilots Association said Friday.

According to Capt. Bob Miller, the president of the Louisville-based pilots association, 19 UPS Airlines pilots were given 30-day notices on Friday. Another 81 pilots will be let go, Miller said.

UPS spokesman Mark Giuffre said the company is looking to complete the process by September.

''This decision is really based on two key issues,'' Giuffre said. ''The more modern aircraft only require two pilots. The older aircraft needed three pilots and that has created a surplus for us.''

The other issue is decrease in shipping volume, Giuffre said.

''We didn't really feel that this was a necessary step,'' Miller said. ''Domestic (service) has been a little flat but international has been going very well.''

UPS and the association, which represents 2,520 UPS pilots, has been negotiating a new contract since October 2002.

''This will have some bearing on the negotiations,'' Miller said. ''It's another issue that comes into play.''

The pilots' contract falls under the National Railway Labor Act and does not expire, but reaches what is called an ''amendable date,'' when provisions are subject to change, on Dec. 31. It's not uncommon for contract talks to continue for years past the amendable date. Strikes can be authorized only as a last resort.

Giuffre said the layoffs, which the company has been considering for months, have nothing to do with the current contract situation.

''Over the last year and a half the economy has been relatively stagnant,'' he said. ''We've been working with the union closely to try to minimize this impact. We do not take a decision like reduction in staff very lightly.''

vipermcg · February 8th, 2003, 08:39

By saying the pilots will be "layed off", does this mean furloughed?

A300Capt · February 8th, 2003, 09:41

[ QUOTE ]
By saying the pilots will be "layed off", does this mean furloughed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's what it means.

Amazingly, a company that makes BILLIONS of dollars a year in the worst of economical times, international growth in the double digits, JA calls and reserve utilizations at an all time high and they feel a need to furlough. Hmmmm.....can we say, "Contract negotiations and scare tactics?"

UPS claims it to be a cost cutting measure. Out of 300,000+ worldwide employees and they choose to lay off 100 pilots to save money? Gotta wonder about the timing of such an announcement!

I_Money · February 8th, 2003, 11:50

Capt. do you think this is due to the contract negotiations that are taking place? It seems very fishy to me, as you said UPS is certainly not doing too bad.

AirborneMedic_ANGa10 · February 8th, 2003, 12:16

[ QUOTE ]
It seems very fishy to me, as you said UPS is certainly not doing too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree...fishy at the very least. It doesn't seem very ethical to pick and choose which labor groups (in this case, pilots) are going to pay for the company's so called tough times. I don't know a thing about labor law, but it seems to me that these tactics would be illegal. I believe that management ought to be required to prove that they've exhausted all other options before using the furlough. And when that furlough comes, it should be distributed throughout the labor groups.

I_Money · February 8th, 2003, 12:38

>>It doesn't seem very ethical to pick and choose which labor groups (in this case, pilots) are going to pay for the company's so called tough times<<

Well they need all the mechanics they have to keep the Whales flying!! From what I hear those birds are hanger queens! Not the same level of queens we have around here, damn Graham Norton seems straight!

aloft · February 8th, 2003, 12:49

Sounds like your new contract needs a no-furlough clause, a la Delta.

A300Capt · February 8th, 2003, 14:58

[ QUOTE ]
Capt. do you think this is due to the contract negotiations that are taking place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Y-E-P!

mtsu_av8er · February 12th, 2003, 10:05

I know it doesn't seem like much....but 100 pilots making $79,000 / year - that saves the company 7.9 million dollars / year. That's only salary and doesn't include the COSTS of being an employer. If you don't need them, there's no need to keep them!

A300Capt · February 12th, 2003, 12:33

The problem is that these pilots ARE needed. JA calls and reserve utilization are at an all time high. Scheduling scrambles everyday to cover trips. Manage pilots are put on super secret emergency reserve callout by the company because we're short on line crews.

Possibly 300+ of are pilots may be called up for military duty if war breaks out (some have already left), not to mention the CRAF program requirements for trip coverage above normal daily business requirements.

The company is still interviewing/hiring management pilots. Why are they doing that and why haven't any current management pilots already on the property received furlough notices? Why haven't any other of UPS's 350,000 worldwide employees been given firlough notices along with the pilots?

Do you really think laying off 100 pilots out of 350,000 worldwide employees will make a dent in saving the company money? How much do service failure cost when trips aren't covered? Why does a company making $$ BILLIONS in profits in spite of a down economy need to lay anyone off?

There's much more to it than what the company's spin doctors are telling the media.

n77j · February 12th, 2003, 13:08

[ QUOTE ]
I know it doesn't seem like much....but 100 pilots making $79,000 / year - that saves the company 7.9 million dollars / year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about everyone else but for a company that makes billions of dollars a year- $7.9 is nothing more than a pocket change. I am sure some of the VP's makes well over $7.9 million a year. Therefore, my personal opinion is a STRIKE by the the pilot union!

I_Money · February 12th, 2003, 13:58

^^ Calling for a strike so soon seems a bit much. It is like some one talking smack about your momma, and you go and get a ICBM and cap their ass!

ready2fly · February 12th, 2003, 14:14

[ QUOTE ]
It is like some one talking smack about your momma, and you go and get a ICBM and cap their ass!

[/ QUOTE ]
Weeeellll I see somebody is DEFINITELY back in Cali.

aloft · February 12th, 2003, 15:03

Come on Iain, it's "bust a cap in they ass"--though I have a difficult time imagining that phrase in a proper British accent....

flyitup · February 12th, 2003, 15:12

[ QUOTE ]
Come on Iain, it's "bust a cap in they ass"--though I have a difficult time imagining that phrase in a proper British accent....

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, Iain... Didn't you learn how to speak Jive in "Airplane I"?

bumflip · February 12th, 2003, 15:55

vipermcg · February 12th, 2003, 18:24

This is kind of off topic, but I always wanted to ask an English person this. Iain, did you see Austin Powers 3? Remember the part where Austin and his father are speaking "Enlgish" to eachother? Can you actually understand that?

I_Money · February 12th, 2003, 19:07

I saw it at Ed's house a while ago and do not remember that bit however I am sure I could translate.

Yeap I am certainly back in Cali!

Doug Taylor · February 12th, 2003, 22:09

The big problem is that most managements act very sinister when it comes to these things.

100 less pilots mean that SOMEONE is going to have to take up the slack for the missing pilots. Which means that when Bill gets off of a trip, he runs the high possibility of getting sent right back out on a multi-day trip.

There's nothing worse, besides furlough, for morale than being away for six days (like me) and then having the company say, "Umm, even though you haven't seen your wife for six days, have no clean underwear left and smell like 5 days of de-icing fluid, you're going on another four day trip -- your aircraft is waiting and boarded".

It happens. Way more than you think it does.

For example, I've been on the road since February 3rd and have spent a whopping 30 hours at home total. I arrived in DFW tonight (Feb 12th) at 10:15pm and I have an America West flight home in the morning.

Now the company could have legally caught me on the ramp this evening and said that I'm flying tomorrow night for four more days -- regardless of the fact that I haven't spent more than 30 hours at home.

This happens all the friggen time but the experts, PR consultants nor the glossy ads in Flying magazine never talk about this and it's completely legal.

The potential furlough at UPS is nothing more than bullying the pilot group during contract negotiations. It's nothing about idling unneeded employees during a downturn. Because pilots and management both know it'll cost more to send 100 pilots on furlough for six months and retrain them when they come back rather than have 100 extra reserves systemwide for six months.

That's somehting you won't see in the newspapers or blurbs on yahoo.

Before you ask, yup, I'm burned-out, need to go home and see my wife and have about 2 millimeters of fuse left when it comes to management groups using the media to negotiate with their pilot group.

Whew! I thought I was going to drop an "F Bomb" or two, but I did alright!

flyitup · February 12th, 2003, 22:15

[ QUOTE ]
"Umm, even though you haven't seen your wife for six days

[/ QUOTE ]

That sucks Doug...

Your really lucky to have such an understanding wife...

Doug Taylor · February 12th, 2003, 22:20

Absolutely.

Let me tell everyone who's listening that this is a tremendously hard profession on marriages.

If it wasn't for Kristie's independence, smarts and housecat like self-sufficiency (ha!

) this probably wouldn't work!

But I know a lot of guys whose marriage ended because of "AIDS" - Airline Induced Divorce Syndrome.

flyitup · February 12th, 2003, 22:56

Just another sad reality of the job I guess...

I'm realizing more and more everyday how much dedication it takes to be in this profession...

Hopefully when it comes to choosing a wife, I’ll be as lucky as you!

mpenguin1 · February 13th, 2003, 07:26

[100 less pilots mean that SOMEONE is going to have to take up the slack for the missing pilots.]

Not necessarily, UPS is staffed at "10" pilots per airplane. UPS also has management pilots and simulator instructors that can fly the line as well, these are not part of the "10".

Both airline management and the pilots unions are using the media to negotiate, I read the same tired comments all the time.

For every horror story of a pilot that is getting screwed by the company, I can tell you stories of how pilots try to screw the company.

Here is one: When I was at Polar, there was a bid trip that flew JFK-ATL-LAX, with a "4" day layover in LAX. The schedulers would let the pilots go home instead of laying over & still receive the lay over credit. We had several pilots that lived in California, we had several pilots that would call in sick for "1" day, of course for the first leg, on the 2nd day they would get better, of course getting the credit for the "3" days of lay over. Not finished yet, pilots were eligible for a JFK-LAX ticket, since the base was JFK, pilots would request the ticket, change the date, & use it for later. We had this one pilot who did this every month, guess what, he was screwing his fellow pilot, who had the cover the JFK-LAX leg, because he would call in sick at the last minute. Dude was fired "8" months later, took that long to convince the Chief Pilot of what he was doing.

Now, this crap at UPS is the typical battle between the Unions & the company, junior pilot get caught in the middle, because that who is on the street....

Doug Taylor · February 13th, 2003, 09:37

It doesn't necessarily mean that the 10 pilots are in position to cover reroutes, people calling in sick, etc. Especially after laying off pilots.

Keep in mind that this is a pilots website and the notion that turnabout is fair play because a Polar pilot called in sick on a four day trip without any hard information doesn't make the argument.

I called in sick last month and ended up with 9 straight days off. Was I screwing the company? Someone looking from the outside at my schedule may presume that I was using "selectively creative schedule management", but at Casa de Taylor, I had goo coming out both ends because I had a nasty case of food poisoning that I got during a trip.

We're not throwing boxes in a warehouse, we're flying jets. The FAA says that if you're adversely affected by illness, medication, stress, anxiety, fatigue or over emotional, we're not supposed to fly. I'm not quite sure if the Polar pilots had any of these traits and being the professionals that they are, I, as well as you, should give them the benefit of the doubt.

DE727UPS · February 13th, 2003, 10:59

"UPS also has management pilots and simulator instructors that can fly the line as well, these are not part of the "10"."

Management flying, as it should be, is limited per the contract. They can't just go out and fill in for line guys on a regular basis. Sim instructors are needed in the training department otherwise training doesn't get done and the number of guys able to fly the line becomes even less.

I'm sure management would consider sick leave abuse to be rampant at any airline. How the line puke uses his sick leave is up to his conscious. This is the way it has to be, to do otherwise creates an unsafe flying environment. UPS pays it's pilots for unused sick leave at the end of the year to encourage you to not use it unless you're sick.

The UPS furloughs are typical of the way management negotiates contracts by intimidation. The junior guys are caught in the crossfire but, personally, I don't think any will be laid off. I'm going out on a limb here but I think the six month leave of absence program and early retirement program will generate 100 bodies. This should take care of the junior guys.

UPS managment thinks the airline is overstaffed by 100 pilots right now. I think we are overstaffed in some areas and understaffed in others. It's true we are parking some three seat airplanes and bringing on some two seaters. This creates temporary staffing problems as people are retrained and reassigned. Other pilots, me included, take advantage of our seniority to bid trips the COMPANY creates which have us fly very low block hours a month. I'm sure the bean counters look at my block hours per year and have a heart attack but I don't build the lines...I just bid them. In other cases, the reserves on certain fleets don't do much flying and the company is starting to notice this. Well, the company agreed to the current contract which constrains the way they build lines. I don't think it's right for them to all the sudden cry foul over some of the rules they agreed to which limit pilot productivity (thus improving my lifestyle). Also, our airline has always had a higher reserve percentage than normal.....this is the way the company wanted it.

A couple of years ago, the 100 guys who are on the furlough list sat in initial ground school and were told by management "welcome to your last job in aviaiton". For a company that makes as much money as UPS to break that promise and furlough these guys is.....well....I better stop there....

February 8th, 2003, 08:20	#1
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 708	UPS to lay off 100 pilots UPS to lay off 100 pilots By Joshua Hammann, Associated Press, 2/7/2003 LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) United Parcel Service will lay off 100 pilots by this fall, the Independent Pilots Association said Friday. According to Capt. Bob Miller, the president of the Louisville-based pilots association, 19 UPS Airlines pilots were given 30-day notices on Friday. Another 81 pilots will be let go, Miller said. UPS spokesman Mark Giuffre said the company is looking to complete the process by September. ''This decision is really based on two key issues,'' Giuffre said. ''The more modern aircraft only require two pilots. The older aircraft needed three pilots and that has created a surplus for us.'' The other issue is decrease in shipping volume, Giuffre said. ''We didn't really feel that this was a necessary step,'' Miller said. ''Domestic (service) has been a little flat but international has been going very well.'' UPS and the association, which represents 2,520 UPS pilots, has been negotiating a new contract since October 2002. ''This will have some bearing on the negotiations,'' Miller said. ''It's another issue that comes into play.'' The pilots' contract falls under the National Railway Labor Act and does not expire, but reaches what is called an ''amendable date,'' when provisions are subject to change, on Dec. 31. It's not uncommon for contract talks to continue for years past the amendable date. Strikes can be authorized only as a last resort. Giuffre said the layoffs, which the company has been considering for months, have nothing to do with the current contract situation. ''Over the last year and a half the economy has been relatively stagnant,'' he said. ''We've been working with the union closely to try to minimize this impact. We do not take a decision like reduction in staff very lightly.''

February 8th, 2003, 08:39	#2
vipermcg Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: New York/ West Lafayette, IN Posts: 393	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots By saying the pilots will be "layed off", does this mean furloughed?

February 8th, 2003, 09:41	#3
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 708	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] By saying the pilots will be "layed off", does this mean furloughed? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, that's what it means. Amazingly, a company that makes BILLIONS of dollars a year in the worst of economical times, international growth in the double digits, JA calls and reserve utilizations at an all time high and they feel a need to furlough. Hmmmm.....can we say, "Contract negotiations and scare tactics?" UPS claims it to be a cost cutting measure. Out of 300,000+ worldwide employees and they choose to lay off 100 pilots to save money? Gotta wonder about the timing of such an announcement!

February 8th, 2003, 11:50	#4
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Capt. do you think this is due to the contract negotiations that are taking place? It seems very fishy to me, as you said UPS is certainly not doing too bad.

February 8th, 2003, 12:16	#5
AirborneMedic_ANGa10 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 213	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] It seems very fishy to me, as you said UPS is certainly not doing too bad. [/ QUOTE ] I agree...fishy at the very least. It doesn't seem very ethical to pick and choose which labor groups (in this case, pilots) are going to pay for the company's so called tough times. I don't know a thing about labor law, but it seems to me that these tactics would be illegal. I believe that management ought to be required to prove that they've exhausted all other options before using the furlough. And when that furlough comes, it should be distributed throughout the labor groups.

February 8th, 2003, 12:38	#6
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots >>It doesn't seem very ethical to pick and choose which labor groups (in this case, pilots) are going to pay for the company's so called tough times<< Well they need all the mechanics they have to keep the Whales flying!! From what I hear those birds are hanger queens! Not the same level of queens we have around here, damn Graham Norton seems straight!

February 8th, 2003, 12:49	#7
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,722	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Sounds like your new contract needs a no-furlough clause, a la Delta.

February 8th, 2003, 14:58	#8
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 708	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] Capt. do you think this is due to the contract negotiations that are taking place? [/ QUOTE ] Y-E-P!

February 12th, 2003, 10:05	#9
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots I know it doesn't seem like much....but 100 pilots making $79,000 / year - that saves the company 7.9 million dollars / year. That's only salary and doesn't include the COSTS of being an employer. If you don't need them, there's no need to keep them!

February 12th, 2003, 12:33	#10
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 708	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots The problem is that these pilots ARE needed. JA calls and reserve utilization are at an all time high. Scheduling scrambles everyday to cover trips. Manage pilots are put on super secret emergency reserve callout by the company because we're short on line crews. Possibly 300+ of are pilots may be called up for military duty if war breaks out (some have already left), not to mention the CRAF program requirements for trip coverage above normal daily business requirements. The company is still interviewing/hiring management pilots. Why are they doing that and why haven't any current management pilots already on the property received furlough notices? Why haven't any other of UPS's 350,000 worldwide employees been given firlough notices along with the pilots? Do you really think laying off 100 pilots out of 350,000 worldwide employees will make a dent in saving the company money? How much do service failure cost when trips aren't covered? Why does a company making $$ BILLIONS in profits in spite of a down economy need to lay anyone off? There's much more to it than what the company's spin doctors are telling the media.

February 12th, 2003, 13:08	#11
n77j Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: haytown,california Posts: 267	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] I know it doesn't seem like much....but 100 pilots making $79,000 / year - that saves the company 7.9 million dollars / year. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know about everyone else but for a company that makes billions of dollars a year- $7.9 is nothing more than a pocket change. I am sure some of the VP's makes well over $7.9 million a year. Therefore, my personal opinion is a STRIKE by the the pilot union!

February 12th, 2003, 13:58	#12
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots ^^ Calling for a strike so soon seems a bit much. It is like some one talking smack about your momma, and you go and get a ICBM and cap their ass!

February 12th, 2003, 14:14	#13
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] It is like some one talking smack about your momma, and you go and get a ICBM and cap their ass! [/ QUOTE ] Weeeellll I see somebody is DEFINITELY back in Cali.

February 12th, 2003, 15:03	#14
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,722	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Come on Iain, it's "bust a cap in they ass"--though I have a difficult time imagining that phrase in a proper British accent....

February 12th, 2003, 15:12	#15
flyitup Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 620	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] Come on Iain, it's "bust a cap in they ass"--though I have a difficult time imagining that phrase in a proper British accent.... [/ QUOTE ] Uhh, Iain... Didn't you learn how to speak Jive in "Airplane I"?

February 12th, 2003, 15:55	#16
bumflip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 314	Post deleted by Doug Taylor

February 12th, 2003, 18:24	#17
vipermcg Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: New York/ West Lafayette, IN Posts: 393	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots This is kind of off topic, but I always wanted to ask an English person this. Iain, did you see Austin Powers 3? Remember the part where Austin and his father are speaking "Enlgish" to eachother? Can you actually understand that?

February 12th, 2003, 19:07	#18
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots I saw it at Ed's house a while ago and do not remember that bit however I am sure I could translate. Yeap I am certainly back in Cali!

February 12th, 2003, 22:09	#19
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,824 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots The big problem is that most managements act very sinister when it comes to these things. 100 less pilots mean that SOMEONE is going to have to take up the slack for the missing pilots. Which means that when Bill gets off of a trip, he runs the high possibility of getting sent right back out on a multi-day trip. There's nothing worse, besides furlough, for morale than being away for six days (like me) and then having the company say, "Umm, even though you haven't seen your wife for six days, have no clean underwear left and smell like 5 days of de-icing fluid, you're going on another four day trip -- your aircraft is waiting and boarded". It happens. Way more than you think it does. For example, I've been on the road since February 3rd and have spent a whopping 30 hours at home total. I arrived in DFW tonight (Feb 12th) at 10:15pm and I have an America West flight home in the morning. Now the company could have legally caught me on the ramp this evening and said that I'm flying tomorrow night for four more days -- regardless of the fact that I haven't spent more than 30 hours at home. This happens all the friggen time but the experts, PR consultants nor the glossy ads in Flying magazine never talk about this and it's completely legal. The potential furlough at UPS is nothing more than bullying the pilot group during contract negotiations. It's nothing about idling unneeded employees during a downturn. Because pilots and management both know it'll cost more to send 100 pilots on furlough for six months and retrain them when they come back rather than have 100 extra reserves systemwide for six months. That's somehting you won't see in the newspapers or blurbs on yahoo. Before you ask, yup, I'm burned-out, need to go home and see my wife and have about 2 millimeters of fuse left when it comes to management groups using the media to negotiate with their pilot group. Whew! I thought I was going to drop an "F Bomb" or two, but I did alright!

February 12th, 2003, 22:15	#20
flyitup Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 620	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] "Umm, even though you haven't seen your wife for six days [/ QUOTE ] That sucks Doug... Your really lucky to have such an understanding wife...

February 12th, 2003, 22:20	#21
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,824 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Absolutely. Let me tell everyone who's listening that this is a tremendously hard profession on marriages. If it wasn't for Kristie's independence, smarts and housecat like self-sufficiency (ha! ) this probably wouldn't work! But I know a lot of guys whose marriage ended because of "AIDS" - Airline Induced Divorce Syndrome.

February 12th, 2003, 22:56	#22
flyitup Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 620	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Just another sad reality of the job I guess... I'm realizing more and more everyday how much dedication it takes to be in this profession... Hopefully when it comes to choosing a wife, I’ll be as lucky as you!

February 13th, 2003, 07:26	#23
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,868 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [100 less pilots mean that SOMEONE is going to have to take up the slack for the missing pilots.] Not necessarily, UPS is staffed at "10" pilots per airplane. UPS also has management pilots and simulator instructors that can fly the line as well, these are not part of the "10". Both airline management and the pilots unions are using the media to negotiate, I read the same tired comments all the time. For every horror story of a pilot that is getting screwed by the company, I can tell you stories of how pilots try to screw the company. Here is one: When I was at Polar, there was a bid trip that flew JFK-ATL-LAX, with a "4" day layover in LAX. The schedulers would let the pilots go home instead of laying over & still receive the lay over credit. We had several pilots that lived in California, we had several pilots that would call in sick for "1" day, of course for the first leg, on the 2nd day they would get better, of course getting the credit for the "3" days of lay over. Not finished yet, pilots were eligible for a JFK-LAX ticket, since the base was JFK, pilots would request the ticket, change the date, & use it for later. We had this one pilot who did this every month, guess what, he was screwing his fellow pilot, who had the cover the JFK-LAX leg, because he would call in sick at the last minute. Dude was fired "8" months later, took that long to convince the Chief Pilot of what he was doing. Now, this crap at UPS is the typical battle between the Unions & the company, junior pilot get caught in the middle, because that who is on the street....

February 13th, 2003, 09:37	#24
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,824 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots It doesn't necessarily mean that the 10 pilots are in position to cover reroutes, people calling in sick, etc. Especially after laying off pilots. Keep in mind that this is a pilots website and the notion that turnabout is fair play because a Polar pilot called in sick on a four day trip without any hard information doesn't make the argument. I called in sick last month and ended up with 9 straight days off. Was I screwing the company? Someone looking from the outside at my schedule may presume that I was using "selectively creative schedule management", but at Casa de Taylor, I had goo coming out both ends because I had a nasty case of food poisoning that I got during a trip. We're not throwing boxes in a warehouse, we're flying jets. The FAA says that if you're adversely affected by illness, medication, stress, anxiety, fatigue or over emotional, we're not supposed to fly. I'm not quite sure if the Polar pilots had any of these traits and being the professionals that they are, I, as well as you, should give them the benefit of the doubt.

February 13th, 2003, 10:59	#25
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,481	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots "UPS also has management pilots and simulator instructors that can fly the line as well, these are not part of the "10"." Management flying, as it should be, is limited per the contract. They can't just go out and fill in for line guys on a regular basis. Sim instructors are needed in the training department otherwise training doesn't get done and the number of guys able to fly the line becomes even less. I'm sure management would consider sick leave abuse to be rampant at any airline. How the line puke uses his sick leave is up to his conscious. This is the way it has to be, to do otherwise creates an unsafe flying environment. UPS pays it's pilots for unused sick leave at the end of the year to encourage you to not use it unless you're sick. The UPS furloughs are typical of the way management negotiates contracts by intimidation. The junior guys are caught in the crossfire but, personally, I don't think any will be laid off. I'm going out on a limb here but I think the six month leave of absence program and early retirement program will generate 100 bodies. This should take care of the junior guys. UPS managment thinks the airline is overstaffed by 100 pilots right now. I think we are overstaffed in some areas and understaffed in others. It's true we are parking some three seat airplanes and bringing on some two seaters. This creates temporary staffing problems as people are retrained and reassigned. Other pilots, me included, take advantage of our seniority to bid trips the COMPANY creates which have us fly very low block hours a month. I'm sure the bean counters look at my block hours per year and have a heart attack but I don't build the lines...I just bid them. In other cases, the reserves on certain fleets don't do much flying and the company is starting to notice this. Well, the company agreed to the current contract which constrains the way they build lines. I don't think it's right for them to all the sudden cry foul over some of the rules they agreed to which limit pilot productivity (thus improving my lifestyle). Also, our airline has always had a higher reserve percentage than normal.....this is the way the company wanted it. A couple of years ago, the 100 guys who are on the furlough list sat in initial ground school and were told by management "welcome to your last job in aviaiton". For a company that makes as much money as UPS to break that promise and furlough these guys is.....well....I better stop there....

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