UPS to lay off 100 pilots - Page 2

mpenguin1 · February 13th, 2003, 12:05

Doug, First off, read what I wrote: I did say at the end that what was going on at UPS is pure crap.....

DE727UPS, what you wrote that what the pilot does with his own sick leave is up to his own conscious, amen to that. But it hurts when you know the pilot outside of the company and you know what he is doing. This was prior to the ALPA days at Polar when pilots were in short supply, so you know what this meant.

1. I simply pointed out that both sides have their horror stories. There are no angels in the airline industry as we all must know by now.

2. Doug, you wrote about how you can get screwed by the airlines when being pulled out to cover a trip. I simply showed another side to the story. I watched both sides point fingers at one another and say who is hurting the company. more.

I worked at Polar Air Cargo for "4" years, Doug, how many years did you work at Polar? So the hard information that you were talking about, exist.

This is a pilot website, and I have the utmost respect for pilots, but should I be ranting & raving "Pilots are good, Management is Bad?"

I assumed we were after points of view, and perhaps a form of the truth

You wrote about how 10 pilots are not in a position to cover reroutes, people calling in sick, etc. Especially after laying off pilots. Do you have any experience in the area of crew scheduling? I have 13 years in the area of crew scheduling, crew planning, 4 years of scheduling in the Navy. So my comment was from experience. I will never comment about landings, takeoffs, steep turns, because I have no experience in that field...

pilot602 · February 13th, 2003, 12:26

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any experience in the area of crew scheduling? I have 13 years in the area of crew scheduling, crew planning, 4 years of scheduling in the Navy. So my comment was from experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

You ever try actually working one of those schedules you have so much experience building?

mpenguin1 · February 13th, 2003, 12:57

You ever try actually working one of those schedules you have so much experience building?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have, when I worked at Nippon Cargo Airlines, it was a requirement for the schedulers to fly a bid line that line pilots flew. Lets see:

Day 1 PAX (with crew) TWA-MXP (18 hour layover)
Day 2 Rode in the jumpseat, MXP-ANC (12 hour layover)
Day 3 Rode Jumspeat, ANC-NRT, 24 hour layover.
Day 4 Rode Jumpseat, NRT-SFO, 11 hour layover.
Day 5 Rode Jumpseat, SFO-JFK back to base, arrived at JFK at 0130, had to be at work same day at 0900.

Whenever I travelled for business, I always used NCA, my favorite was riding JFK-ANC-NRT, quick shower & breakfast in NRT & then head to the office, this would turn out to be a 34 hour day, worked before getting on the flight.

Navy day, as an aircraft mechanic, my favorite was
(1) Engine change, took 18 hours
(2) Ran to barracks to pack a seabag.
(3) Rode in the back of a P3, Guam to Atsugi
(4) Arrived in Atsugi, tired and smelled of body odor, JP5 fuel, and everything else.
(5) Went right to work changing a prop on a P3 hurricane hunter.
(6) Quick nap, called by the shop to get to work, short of mechanics.

Hope this answers your question

pilot602 · February 13th, 2003, 13:17

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I have, when I worked at Nippon Cargo Airlines, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's cool. Was it fun/easy?

I mean it's cool that you've done a ride along and all once or twice but it's a far cry from doing it day in and day out for years on end with the constant threat of medical problems, FAA problems, management crap, or some TSA punk yanking your tickets any and all of which end in a "game over." Or, the small little consequence called death - another "game over."

mpenguin1 · February 13th, 2003, 13:27

That's cool. Was it fun/easy?

I mean it's cool that you've done a ride along and all once or twice but it's a far cry from doing it day in and day out for years on end with the constant threat of medical problems, FAA problems, management crap, or some TSA punk yanking your tickets any and all of which end in a "game over." Or, the small little consequence called death - another "game over."

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it fun? It was not supposed to be fun, it was just a way of understanding what the pilots go through and for the pilots to know we felt their pain. Was more than once or twice, it was 10-12 times a year. Sometimes on my own time.

At Polar we did the same thing, and we invited the pilots in the office to sit with a scheduler for a "12" hour shift, one of the comments from one of the observers was: "How do you deal with these f***ing pilots."

Doug Taylor · February 13th, 2003, 13:58

Hey DE727UPS, how many good stories do you have when flying with simulator instructors!

When I was based in Atlanta on the 727, my captain was the assistant program manager and the FO was the senior simulator instructor and boy o boy was that an interesting four day trip!

I just remember, blurting "Tired already? Sheesh, we've got four legs left, boys!" a few times and a few 'no no nooooo all dang, that only works in the sim, lemme reset the generator..."

pilot602 · February 13th, 2003, 14:21

[ QUOTE ]
It was not supposed to be fun, it was just a way of understanding what the pilots go through and for the pilots to know we felt their pain.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my point. Those schedules are rough - and no matter how you cut it, it aint a 9 - 5 job. Sure, the schedulers may work a "12" hour shift but a) it's in a secure, non-moving environment and b) at the end of that shift, every single time, that guy or gal gets to walk out the door and go home. It's nice that you were able to get an idea of what the schedule was like but "feeling someone's pain" and actually enduring it in order to make a living are two completely different things.

[ QUOTE ]
At Polar we did the same thing, and we invited the pilots in the office to sit with a scheduler for a "12" hour shift, one of the comments from one of the observers was: "How do you deal with these f***ing pilots."

[/ QUOTE ]

And observers with the pilots probably would/could/did ask "How do you deal with these f***ing dispatchers." Just because one "observer" asked "how do you deal with these f***ing pilots" does not mean all pilots are horrible, power mongering, pretty boys with attitudes. Just like one "observer" saying something similar about dispatchers does not make all dispatchers a bunch of pencil pushing, power triping, nerds.

I'm not trying to turn this into a "this job is better/worse than that job" argument - but it's one thing to fly the line and entirely different thing to be the one who creates the line.

[ QUOTE ]
Was more than once or twice, it was 10-12 times a year. Sometimes on my own time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug Taylor · February 13th, 2003, 14:35

Of course I've never worked for Polar, in fact I didn't know they were still around.

I've never worked as a crew scheduler, but I have been dealing with crew schedulers since I got my first airline job back in 1996.

The crew scheduler's job is to match pilots with aircraft, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, I have associates at my own airline that are crew schedulers and they have a very diffcult job primarily because pilots are a lot like pigeons at times. You know, you have to throw a handful of rocks at them to make them fly!

However, if I have to call in sick, at least at my airline, it's literally out of the schedulers realm of authority. If there is a question about the appropriateness of a sick call, any type of inquiry comes through the chief pilot.

mpenguin1 · February 13th, 2003, 15:58

All of this back & forth stuff is making me dizzy, let me just make a couple of points to Doug, in a polite manner.

However, if I have to call in sick, at least at my airline, it's literally out of the schedulers realm of authority. If there is a question about the appropriateness of a sick call, any type of inquiry comes through the chief pilot.
________________________________________________
Doug you are quite right, and if you read my post, the Chief Pilot did make the call.
__________________________________________

The crew scheduler's job is to match pilots with aircraft, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, I have associates at my own airline that are crew schedulers and they have a very diffcult job primarily because pilots are a lot like pigeons at times. You know, you have to throw a handful of rocks at them to make them fly!
_______________________________________________
Doug, good point, but sometimes the scheduling manager, oh, that was me, can certainly make suggestions and see when things are wrong. Once again, the worst part was that I knew the guy outside of the office, but was trying to prevent my personal life and work life from mixing.

seagull · February 13th, 2003, 17:19

Doug,

Delta can force you to fly even if you don't want to? I'm surprised, there is no way that they can make me fly anything other than my regular scheduled trip at FedEx. I can always say know, and have many times!

Doug Taylor · February 13th, 2003, 17:49

Absolutely they can. Unless you can find and then convince the chief pilot or the ALPA duty pilot to intervene.

The basic premise at Delta has been "Fly it and grieve it".

DE727UPS · February 14th, 2003, 01:44

Seagull---just for reference, most airlines can force you to work overtime if they catch you. They can catch you before your last trip and give you another assignment, not much you can do about that. They can also call you at home but being able to screen your calls is a wonderful thing. If you do answer your phone at home, you can just say you're not available. There have been times when management will harass you about your lack of availability, but in the end, no one has been fired for just saying they are not available. If they catch you fair and square at work for an extra trip, you pretty much gotta do it. I've not heard of anyone walking away from a reschedule saying they are not available....would get you in hot water...it's in the contract. Even things that aren't in the contract you pretty much gotta do. We also work under the "do what we tell you and you can grieve it later" system....

Doug---my favorite management pilot story is a 727 out of DFW to EFD. I'm in the right seat and working the radios on the ground, it's my leg. After we get airborne, the Capt can't seem to talk to ATC. He's talkin' but they aren't hearin'. I can hear him fine and can hear ATC as well. I'm laughing my butt off inside cause I think I know what's wrong but I'm not gonna tell. Out of about 14 thousand the guy figures out his mike selector is still on intercom and we get squared away with ATC. I can't say much since I've done things like that before, too. Also, must say that this particular management guy was/is a really nice guy with a good background at TWA.

Have flown with the ex-RFD-chief pilot, a very good stick. He was a line guy at American before their furlough in the mid-90's and was one of the few that didn't leave UPS and go back after the recall.

For the most part, I've had no problems with managment pilots but have not flown with many. You hear a lot of rumors, though, about their lack of flying skills due to being in the office most of the time.

mpenguin1 · February 14th, 2003, 07:17

Yep! You guys are right on this one, the company can ask/force you to fly on your days off.

Some pilots like this as they can pick up some nice O/T, of course some guys hate it. A good scheduler will usually "make a deal", fly this trip & we will drop that trip.

I know at Polar if you are forced to fly on your days off, they will make the company pay you for it, they call it the 2,4,6 rule. If you fly on your first day off it is "2" hours on top of guarantee, 2nd day is "4" hours, 3rd day is "6" hours, etc. This way both groups feel the pain.

With last minute MAC flights (military) even the Chief pilot will force pilots to fly, they are a money maker, the military pays for the aircraft fully loaded & round trip, even if it returns to base empty. Company will run a charter trip & make some extra cash.

I have never heard of a pilot being fired for not flying on days off, though threats are made. And yes, I have had to this, BUT, not without making sure the pilot get something in return.

MIKE

Doug Taylor · February 14th, 2003, 11:23

[ QUOTE ]
Doug---my favorite management pilot story is a 727 out of DFW to EFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I flew with a "management pilot" a few years ago and we're about 2 legs into a 6 leg day... The pilot, obviously exhausted, looks over at me on the second leg and says, "Oh my god, you guys do this ALL the time?"

"We've got three days left of this skipper! This is the easy day!"

Doug Taylor · February 14th, 2003, 11:27

Most guys will either only give out their cellular telephone number, or use "ring master". "Ring Master" is a feature where you have two telephone numbers on one telephone line. When someone calls your regular telephone number, the phone rings in a normal fashion. When someone calls the 'special' telephone number, the phone does something like "ringring.....ringring..."

I'm not saying that I'm lazy or that I'm a "pidgeon", but I really don't trust any 'good deals' from schedulers because you have no recourse if they don't hold up their end of the bargain, and I'd rather be at home with my wife than sitting in some short layover hotel in Tallahassee making assignment pay.

mpenguin1 · February 14th, 2003, 12:20

I'm not saying that I'm lazy or that I'm a "pidgeon", but I really don't trust any 'good deals' from schedulers because you have no recourse if they don't hold up their end of the bargain, and I'd rather be at home with my wife than sitting in some short layover hotel in Tallahassee making assignment pay.

[/ QUOTE ]
______________________________________________
There is a recourse, it is called the honor system, you get "1" chance with a pilot, screw him over & he will remember it forever. That comment about accountability, goes both ways, have been burned before, it happens, though only once. Most scheduling operations have all incoming/outside phone calls recorded to prevent this from happening. Can't speak for Delta.

Doug Taylor · February 14th, 2003, 12:26

They record all telephone conversations at Delta as well. However, if they don't hold up their end of the bargain for a 'good deal', then they revert back to 'Uh, where does it say in the contract that I'm even able to do something like that?' and you have no recourse.

99.99% of our crew schedulers are fantastic people and it bites that they have such a bad rap! But you know, they have 30 seats to fill and 25 butts so they've got a difficult job!

seagull · February 14th, 2003, 12:58

Obviously was tired when I wrote that last, as I spelled "no" as "know", but the facts remain, under no circumstances can I be required to fly on my days off at FedEx once off the trip.

What can happen is getting stuck in the field due to a broken airplane. I have had to "babysit" an airplane, or have been stuck in cities due to typhoons, and things like that. The pay goes to 150% over the first day then up to 200%. They don't do that very often, and it is just due to circumstances outside the control of the company, meaning they can't just extend the trip due to staffing needs. Even in those circumstances, I have said I have to get home and they put me on a commercial flight back on a few occasions.

Management pilots can be made to fly, as I understand it, but never a line pilot. Once we are back at our crew base we are done. They can make it enticing, we do get 150% pay for overtime and the deals start getting better as they get desperate.

February 13th, 2003, 12:05	#26
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,786 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Doug, First off, read what I wrote: I did say at the end that what was going on at UPS is pure crap..... DE727UPS, what you wrote that what the pilot does with his own sick leave is up to his own conscious, amen to that. But it hurts when you know the pilot outside of the company and you know what he is doing. This was prior to the ALPA days at Polar when pilots were in short supply, so you know what this meant. 1. I simply pointed out that both sides have their horror stories. There are no angels in the airline industry as we all must know by now. 2. Doug, you wrote about how you can get screwed by the airlines when being pulled out to cover a trip. I simply showed another side to the story. I watched both sides point fingers at one another and say who is hurting the company. more. I worked at Polar Air Cargo for "4" years, Doug, how many years did you work at Polar? So the hard information that you were talking about, exist. This is a pilot website, and I have the utmost respect for pilots, but should I be ranting & raving "Pilots are good, Management is Bad?" I assumed we were after points of view, and perhaps a form of the truth You wrote about how 10 pilots are not in a position to cover reroutes, people calling in sick, etc. Especially after laying off pilots. Do you have any experience in the area of crew scheduling? I have 13 years in the area of crew scheduling, crew planning, 4 years of scheduling in the Navy. So my comment was from experience. I will never comment about landings, takeoffs, steep turns, because I have no experience in that field...

February 13th, 2003, 12:26	#27
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] Do you have any experience in the area of crew scheduling? I have 13 years in the area of crew scheduling, crew planning, 4 years of scheduling in the Navy. So my comment was from experience. [/ QUOTE ] You ever try actually working one of those schedules you have so much experience building?

February 13th, 2003, 12:57	#28
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,786 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots You ever try actually working one of those schedules you have so much experience building? [/ QUOTE ] Yes I have, when I worked at Nippon Cargo Airlines, it was a requirement for the schedulers to fly a bid line that line pilots flew. Lets see: Day 1 PAX (with crew) TWA-MXP (18 hour layover) Day 2 Rode in the jumpseat, MXP-ANC (12 hour layover) Day 3 Rode Jumspeat, ANC-NRT, 24 hour layover. Day 4 Rode Jumpseat, NRT-SFO, 11 hour layover. Day 5 Rode Jumpseat, SFO-JFK back to base, arrived at JFK at 0130, had to be at work same day at 0900. Whenever I travelled for business, I always used NCA, my favorite was riding JFK-ANC-NRT, quick shower & breakfast in NRT & then head to the office, this would turn out to be a 34 hour day, worked before getting on the flight. Navy day, as an aircraft mechanic, my favorite was (1) Engine change, took 18 hours (2) Ran to barracks to pack a seabag. (3) Rode in the back of a P3, Guam to Atsugi (4) Arrived in Atsugi, tired and smelled of body odor, JP5 fuel, and everything else. (5) Went right to work changing a prop on a P3 hurricane hunter. (6) Quick nap, called by the shop to get to work, short of mechanics. Hope this answers your question

February 13th, 2003, 13:17	#29
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] Yes I have, when I worked at Nippon Cargo Airlines, ... [/ QUOTE ] That's cool. Was it fun/easy? I mean it's cool that you've done a ride along and all once or twice but it's a far cry from doing it day in and day out for years on end with the constant threat of medical problems, FAA problems, management crap, or some TSA punk yanking your tickets any and all of which end in a "game over." Or, the small little consequence called death - another "game over."

February 13th, 2003, 13:27	#30
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,786 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots That's cool. Was it fun/easy? I mean it's cool that you've done a ride along and all once or twice but it's a far cry from doing it day in and day out for years on end with the constant threat of medical problems, FAA problems, management crap, or some TSA punk yanking your tickets any and all of which end in a "game over." Or, the small little consequence called death - another "game over." [/ QUOTE ] Was it fun? It was not supposed to be fun, it was just a way of understanding what the pilots go through and for the pilots to know we felt their pain. Was more than once or twice, it was 10-12 times a year. Sometimes on my own time. At Polar we did the same thing, and we invited the pilots in the office to sit with a scheduler for a "12" hour shift, one of the comments from one of the observers was: "How do you deal with these f***ing pilots."

February 13th, 2003, 13:58	#31
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,271 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Hey DE727UPS, how many good stories do you have when flying with simulator instructors! When I was based in Atlanta on the 727, my captain was the assistant program manager and the FO was the senior simulator instructor and boy o boy was that an interesting four day trip! I just remember, blurting "Tired already? Sheesh, we've got four legs left, boys!" a few times and a few 'no no nooooo all dang, that only works in the sim, lemme reset the generator..."

February 13th, 2003, 14:21	#32
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] It was not supposed to be fun, it was just a way of understanding what the pilots go through and for the pilots to know we felt their pain. [/ QUOTE ] That was my point. Those schedules are rough - and no matter how you cut it, it aint a 9 - 5 job. Sure, the schedulers may work a "12" hour shift but a) it's in a secure, non-moving environment and b) at the end of that shift, every single time, that guy or gal gets to walk out the door and go home. It's nice that you were able to get an idea of what the schedule was like but "feeling someone's pain" and actually enduring it in order to make a living are two completely different things. [ QUOTE ] At Polar we did the same thing, and we invited the pilots in the office to sit with a scheduler for a "12" hour shift, one of the comments from one of the observers was: "How do you deal with these f*ing pilots." [/ QUOTE ] And observers with the pilots probably would/could/did ask "How do you deal with these fing dispatchers." Just because one "observer" asked "how do you deal with these f**ing pilots" does not mean all pilots are horrible, power mongering, pretty boys with attitudes. Just like one "observer" saying something similar about dispatchers does not make all dispatchers a bunch of pencil pushing, power triping, nerds. I'm not trying to turn this into a "this job is better/worse than that job" argument - but it's one thing to fly the line and entirely different thing to be the one who creates the line. [ QUOTE ] Was more than once or twice, it was 10-12 times a year. Sometimes on my own time. [/ QUOTE ]

February 13th, 2003, 14:35	#33
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,271 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Of course I've never worked for Polar, in fact I didn't know they were still around. I've never worked as a crew scheduler, but I have been dealing with crew schedulers since I got my first airline job back in 1996. The crew scheduler's job is to match pilots with aircraft, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, I have associates at my own airline that are crew schedulers and they have a very diffcult job primarily because pilots are a lot like pigeons at times. You know, you have to throw a handful of rocks at them to make them fly! However, if I have to call in sick, at least at my airline, it's literally out of the schedulers realm of authority. If there is a question about the appropriateness of a sick call, any type of inquiry comes through the chief pilot.

February 13th, 2003, 15:58	#34
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,786 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots All of this back & forth stuff is making me dizzy, let me just make a couple of points to Doug, in a polite manner. However, if I have to call in sick, at least at my airline, it's literally out of the schedulers realm of authority. If there is a question about the appropriateness of a sick call, any type of inquiry comes through the chief pilot. ________________________________________________ Doug you are quite right, and if you read my post, the Chief Pilot did make the call. __________________________________________ The crew scheduler's job is to match pilots with aircraft, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, I have associates at my own airline that are crew schedulers and they have a very diffcult job primarily because pilots are a lot like pigeons at times. You know, you have to throw a handful of rocks at them to make them fly! _______________________________________________ Doug, good point, but sometimes the scheduling manager, oh, that was me, can certainly make suggestions and see when things are wrong. Once again, the worst part was that I knew the guy outside of the office, but was trying to prevent my personal life and work life from mixing.

February 13th, 2003, 17:19	#35
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,043	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Doug, Delta can force you to fly even if you don't want to? I'm surprised, there is no way that they can make me fly anything other than my regular scheduled trip at FedEx. I can always say know, and have many times!

February 13th, 2003, 17:49	#36
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,271 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Absolutely they can. Unless you can find and then convince the chief pilot or the ALPA duty pilot to intervene. The basic premise at Delta has been "Fly it and grieve it".

February 14th, 2003, 01:44	#37
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,462	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Seagull---just for reference, most airlines can force you to work overtime if they catch you. They can catch you before your last trip and give you another assignment, not much you can do about that. They can also call you at home but being able to screen your calls is a wonderful thing. If you do answer your phone at home, you can just say you're not available. There have been times when management will harass you about your lack of availability, but in the end, no one has been fired for just saying they are not available. If they catch you fair and square at work for an extra trip, you pretty much gotta do it. I've not heard of anyone walking away from a reschedule saying they are not available....would get you in hot water...it's in the contract. Even things that aren't in the contract you pretty much gotta do. We also work under the "do what we tell you and you can grieve it later" system.... Doug---my favorite management pilot story is a 727 out of DFW to EFD. I'm in the right seat and working the radios on the ground, it's my leg. After we get airborne, the Capt can't seem to talk to ATC. He's talkin' but they aren't hearin'. I can hear him fine and can hear ATC as well. I'm laughing my butt off inside cause I think I know what's wrong but I'm not gonna tell. Out of about 14 thousand the guy figures out his mike selector is still on intercom and we get squared away with ATC. I can't say much since I've done things like that before, too. Also, must say that this particular management guy was/is a really nice guy with a good background at TWA. Have flown with the ex-RFD-chief pilot, a very good stick. He was a line guy at American before their furlough in the mid-90's and was one of the few that didn't leave UPS and go back after the recall. For the most part, I've had no problems with managment pilots but have not flown with many. You hear a lot of rumors, though, about their lack of flying skills due to being in the office most of the time.

February 14th, 2003, 07:17	#38
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,786 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Yep! You guys are right on this one, the company can ask/force you to fly on your days off. Some pilots like this as they can pick up some nice O/T, of course some guys hate it. A good scheduler will usually "make a deal", fly this trip & we will drop that trip. I know at Polar if you are forced to fly on your days off, they will make the company pay you for it, they call it the 2,4,6 rule. If you fly on your first day off it is "2" hours on top of guarantee, 2nd day is "4" hours, 3rd day is "6" hours, etc. This way both groups feel the pain. With last minute MAC flights (military) even the Chief pilot will force pilots to fly, they are a money maker, the military pays for the aircraft fully loaded & round trip, even if it returns to base empty. Company will run a charter trip & make some extra cash. I have never heard of a pilot being fired for not flying on days off, though threats are made. And yes, I have had to this, BUT, not without making sure the pilot get something in return. MIKE

February 14th, 2003, 11:23	#39
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,271 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots [ QUOTE ] Doug---my favorite management pilot story is a 727 out of DFW to EFD. [/ QUOTE ] I flew with a "management pilot" a few years ago and we're about 2 legs into a 6 leg day... The pilot, obviously exhausted, looks over at me on the second leg and says, "Oh my god, you guys do this ALL the time?" "We've got three days left of this skipper! This is the easy day!"

February 14th, 2003, 11:27	#40
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,271 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Most guys will either only give out their cellular telephone number, or use "ring master". "Ring Master" is a feature where you have two telephone numbers on one telephone line. When someone calls your regular telephone number, the phone rings in a normal fashion. When someone calls the 'special' telephone number, the phone does something like "ringring.....ringring..." I'm not saying that I'm lazy or that I'm a "pidgeon", but I really don't trust any 'good deals' from schedulers because you have no recourse if they don't hold up their end of the bargain, and I'd rather be at home with my wife than sitting in some short layover hotel in Tallahassee making assignment pay.

February 14th, 2003, 12:20	#41
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,786 Blog Entries: 5	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots I'm not saying that I'm lazy or that I'm a "pidgeon", but I really don't trust any 'good deals' from schedulers because you have no recourse if they don't hold up their end of the bargain, and I'd rather be at home with my wife than sitting in some short layover hotel in Tallahassee making assignment pay. [/ QUOTE ] ______________________________________________ There is a recourse, it is called the honor system, you get "1" chance with a pilot, screw him over & he will remember it forever. That comment about accountability, goes both ways, have been burned before, it happens, though only once. Most scheduling operations have all incoming/outside phone calls recorded to prevent this from happening. Can't speak for Delta.

February 14th, 2003, 12:26	#42
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,271 Blog Entries: 1	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots They record all telephone conversations at Delta as well. However, if they don't hold up their end of the bargain for a 'good deal', then they revert back to 'Uh, where does it say in the contract that I'm even able to do something like that?' and you have no recourse. 99.99% of our crew schedulers are fantastic people and it bites that they have such a bad rap! But you know, they have 30 seats to fill and 25 butts so they've got a difficult job!

February 14th, 2003, 12:58	#43
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,043	Re: UPS to lay off 100 pilots Obviously was tired when I wrote that last, as I spelled "no" as "know", but the facts remain, under no circumstances can I be required to fly on my days off at FedEx once off the trip. What can happen is getting stuck in the field due to a broken airplane. I have had to "babysit" an airplane, or have been stuck in cities due to typhoons, and things like that. The pay goes to 150% over the first day then up to 200%. They don't do that very often, and it is just due to circumstances outside the control of the company, meaning they can't just extend the trip due to staffing needs. Even in those circumstances, I have said I have to get home and they put me on a commercial flight back on a few occasions. Management pilots can be made to fly, as I understand it, but never a line pilot. Once we are back at our crew base we are done. They can make it enticing, we do get 150% pay for overtime and the deals start getting better as they get desperate.

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