BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT!

DrBenny · February 6th, 2003, 18:38

Baltimore-Washington area pilots who are members of AOPA got an email from Phil Boyer today. Apparently, there are rumors that the airspace is going to become more restrictive. The LEAST RESTRICTIVE scenario would be the vertical expansion of the Washington-Baltimore Class B airspace from the surface to 10,000 ft, with posiibly no flight training. I repeat, that is the least restrictive scenario.

So people like me would be screwed two ways: I wouldn't be able to finish my PPL, and even if I did it somewhere else (and where would that be?), I wouldn't be able to operate where I live until I get an IR.

In short, people like me would simply have to quit.

Many many flight schools would probably be closed down, too.

I feel like dog [expletive deleted] right now, and I don't know what to do!

Ben Myers

Not enjoying this
<font color="red"> </font>

chunk75 · February 6th, 2003, 20:38

Why wouldn't you be able to operate without an instrument ticket?

Sucks....everyone should be a member of AOPA!

Chunk

E_Dawg · February 6th, 2003, 21:12

Well, that sucks man... remember though that it will not happen with out a fight; and at the very lest flight training will probably be allowed. I don't know why you'd have to have an instrument rating to fly out of there though... even if you can't flight train (like at LAX), you can fly in and out all you want with just a private cert, though if they shut down the flight training there will be no place to rent from

.

zombie5225 · February 6th, 2003, 21:45

DrBenny, really F'ed up isnt it?? If this true it would end my training also. I just think its said what this country is coming to.

flyitup · February 6th, 2003, 21:52

All the more reason to become a member of AOPA.... An AOPA membership is an invaluable tool when it comes to fighting the government for our rights as pilots. It’s thirty nine dollars very, very well spent…

Here's a link to sign up.

DrBenny · February 6th, 2003, 22:16

Oh, and I left out. Even in the least restrictive scenario, you could only operate IFR.

tonyw · February 7th, 2003, 22:04

Wow. This is even more restrictive than what they do at the airport I fly out of, which is one of the DC three. There, you have to be based there, and then on top of that, you need to get cleared by the TSA, FBI, and Secret Service. After you get your clearance, Clarence (sorry, couldn't resist there) you have to call the Leesburg FSS and they file a TFR exit and entry flight plan for you. After that is done, you have to call DCA approach on the phone to get a squawk. Then you can fly.

If you do not call DCA, you're screwed. It's a situation that nobody likes. I know I don't like it, and I know that the ATC folks don't like it either. You can tell by the way they talk to us -- like one time, the guy said after I read back his directions, give yourself a couple of gold stars for getting it right. I was like, what the hell did I do to deserve that?

drumminpilot · February 8th, 2003, 10:52

Geez...... I really take for granted the airspace here. Other than the usual Class C or D procedures, you just hop in and go whenever and wherever (to an extent obviously) you want to go. Man, I'm sorry to hear that guys.

tonyw · February 8th, 2003, 22:18

It sounds like a lot more people will be getting used to doing what I've been doing. This is ridiculous.

The ATC folks are going to be pissed. Now they're going to have to deal with at least twice, more like three times, the number of people they had to and they already didn't like dealing with us.

Doug, get ready to hear a lot more student pilots stammering their way through radio communications when you fly into DCA!

I just looked at the AOPA website and man, am I even more pissed! Now, in order to get off the ground, the TSA will be screening me. On top of that, I have to land at Lee airport in Annapolis before I can go back to my home airport. That's bullcaca!

I'd say it's time to start fighting the TSA and all this BS, but you know what, I don't want to risk my ticket. Since the TSA can have the FAA yank your ticket if they feel you are a security risk, and complaining about their ridiculous rules may get you labelled such, I think I'll just bend over and take it, as much as it pisses me off.

This is just flat out un-American. And this is being done to protect symbols of freedom. Anyone see the irony in that?

Mahesh · February 9th, 2003, 13:54

I am simply flabergasted. I am based out of Leesburg Municiple (JYO). So I have to file a VFR flight plan even to stay in the pattern and practice landings, let alone fly out of the area.

I hope I get another job outside of the DC area so that I can work on my IFR ticket elsewhere.

Mahesh

tonyw · February 9th, 2003, 17:18

I went up today and I figured I'd give you an update. I spoke with the folks at Leesburg about what's going to happen.

Effective 6:00 AM tomorrow, you will not be permitted to fly unless you get a TFR clearance for both your exit and your entry. And if you land anywhere, you will have to fly to ANP for an inspection before they let you in. Also, you will have a TSA security person check out your aircraft and your baggage before you get to fly, and they will check your ID and your license or medical.

I'm not sure what they are going to do regarding clearing pliots and flying. If they do require you to get cleared before you fly, here's what we had to do. We were required to get a background check done by the TSA, FBI, and Secret Service (fortunately, this was all done at the same time and we didn't have to go back three times). Then after that, we had to go to the FSDO for an interview. Only after that were we issued a PIN in order to file for a TFR clearance.

The TFR clearance is different than a VFR flight plan. Essentially, all you do is tell them when you want to leave the TFR and when you want to come back. You can file that when you get the weather brief. I didn't mind that too much.

What really pisses me off is the nonsense about having to land at ANP for an inspection on the way back. The only exception is when you maintain contact with ATC at all times during flight and do not land anywhere!

George Bush and his cronies deserve a prop up their butts for this stupidity.

zombie5225 · February 10th, 2003, 00:09

I enjoyed my last day of trouble free VFR. To think after today I am going to need to be on a flight plan just to buzz around the easter shore! One question that I have, will I be able to fly where I want under a VFR flight plan, or will I have to have a destination airport on file and stay on course while under class B?

Mahesh · February 10th, 2003, 05:23

I am pasting an email I got through a Leesburg Pilots email list, written by someone named Ed.

First, my disclaimer....

I am trying to provide you the best information that I can with the information that I have. Use the information I provide you with CAUTION as it changes each MINUTE and with each person I speak with. I expect to get more info VERY early Monday Morning and will disseminate it as it is available.

Thanks..

Now.. after discussing with the FAA, and FSS and ATC, here is how "I PERSONALLY" would fly out of JYO, VFR on Monday Morning.

- be very patient.. Many corporations are "nervous" about the TFR and are filing flightplans Directly with Leesburg FSS rather than using their normal electronic channels. One company has over 100 flightplans for tomorrow already. Leesburg FSS (as is the system is going to be very busy)

- Calling 1-800-WX Brief "might" get you Leesburg FSS, but then again, it may now. To be certain to reach Leesburg FSS, you may call them at 1-866-225-7410.

- I would file my VFR flight plan with Leesburg via 866-225-7410 and the initial route of my flight would be directly North or West to "get out of the area" as soon as possible.

- After doing my run-up, I would call Clearance Delivery (118.55) to get my transponder code and explain that I am VFR, number # for departure and get my departure freq from them. (this is all a gray area.. but others agreed that this would be a good attempt).

- I would announce on CTAF at JYO my departure, then continue to monitor CTAF on one radio while I called Potomac Approach on my assigned departure freq.

This will be easy for the IFR pilots as the procedures are what you are used to.

Be patient and help each other.. and DON'T bust rules and airspace... it hurts us all, and could be especially dangerous for you depending on which airspace you bust.

tonyw · February 10th, 2003, 07:46

If they do things like they did at my airport, then what will happen is once you clear the area, you can do whatever you want. You just need to get in touch with approach before you get into the airspace and you better be sure you have a squawk code and have been cleared into the TFR before you go in there.

When Air Force One came through one day when I was up, I was told to remain clear of the TFR since the airport I fly out of is just a few miles south of Andrews. ATC told me to come back later otherwise I'd be circling for a while!

Please, folks, if you fly in the DC area, DO NOT BUST THE AIRSPACE because you will hurt all of us! They're getting carried away, yes, but breaking the rules aren't the way to show them that we think they're idiots.

By the way, I saw one of those Customs aircraft yesterday. He shadowed me when I was doing pattern work!

aloft · February 10th, 2003, 13:52

Well, at least we now know what flying in a police state looks like.

jlo · February 24th, 2003, 22:27

What is up with the security restrictions in that area (Baltimore-DC)?

I have been reading the posts and was curious if flight training has slowed down because of the situation.

I have been offered a job (CFI/CFII) in the Baltimore area, but I am hesitant. I know someone that works at the same location, and he said he was logging about 80-100 hours/month, but that was before the security restrictions were imposed. He said it is no big deal, that you just have to be on a flight plan, and it puts more responsibility on the instructors.

I know no one can tell me whether or not to "go or no go" on the job, but I do not want to move (20 hours) to a great flight school, only to have all the students quit training because of the security restrictions. Should I be worried, or are things pretty normal?

PS--With instructor jobs so limited, I really do not want to pass up a good thing!

zombie5225 · February 25th, 2003, 00:15

It hasnt been that bad, it could be worse. Its about a 15 minute wait to file a VFR flight plan. Ive been doing mostly IFR however. What school/airport are you planning to work for??

tonyw · February 25th, 2003, 00:51

Where is the job? You definitely do not want to take a job at Potomac, Hyde, or College Park. I fly out of one of those places and as soon as I get my ticket, I'm headed to Gaithersburg for a flying club and I'll get my instruction from a contractor. It is just too inconvenient for me to have to subject myself to a TSA proctological exam before I fly and then have to fly to a specific airport for another one before I return.

DrBenny · February 25th, 2003, 18:38

jlo, it has been a royal PITA around here lately. Add to that the INCREDIBLY bad weather, and you'll see that there has been a lot of time off. I would have been done with my XCs by now.

You have to file a flight plan--essentially IFR--and get cleared out of and into the ADIZ. I've heard tell that if we goto war, ALL flight training as well as VFR ops will be suspended.

Please tell me where you've been offered the job. I know the flight schools around here, and probably can tell you a bit about them!

DrBenny

February 6th, 2003, 18:38	#1
DrBenny Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 395	BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Baltimore-Washington area pilots who are members of AOPA got an email from Phil Boyer today. Apparently, there are rumors that the airspace is going to become more restrictive. The LEAST RESTRICTIVE scenario would be the vertical expansion of the Washington-Baltimore Class B airspace from the surface to 10,000 ft, with posiibly no flight training. I repeat, that is the least restrictive scenario. So people like me would be screwed two ways: I wouldn't be able to finish my PPL, and even if I did it somewhere else (and where would that be?), I wouldn't be able to operate where I live until I get an IR. In short, people like me would simply have to quit. Many many flight schools would probably be closed down, too. I feel like dog [expletive deleted] right now, and I don't know what to do! Ben Myers Not enjoying this <font color="red"> </font>

February 6th, 2003, 20:38	#2
chunk75 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: FL Posts: 922	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Why wouldn't you be able to operate without an instrument ticket? Sucks....everyone should be a member of AOPA! Chunk

February 6th, 2003, 21:12	#3
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,145	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Well, that sucks man... remember though that it will not happen with out a fight; and at the very lest flight training will probably be allowed. I don't know why you'd have to have an instrument rating to fly out of there though... even if you can't flight train (like at LAX), you can fly in and out all you want with just a private cert, though if they shut down the flight training there will be no place to rent from .

February 6th, 2003, 21:45	#4
zombie5225 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 117	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! DrBenny, really F'ed up isnt it?? If this true it would end my training also. I just think its said what this country is coming to.

February 6th, 2003, 21:52	#5
flyitup Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 620	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! All the more reason to become a member of AOPA.... An AOPA membership is an invaluable tool when it comes to fighting the government for our rights as pilots. It’s thirty nine dollars very, very well spent… Here's a link to sign up.

February 6th, 2003, 22:16	#6
DrBenny Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 395	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Oh, and I left out. Even in the least restrictive scenario, you could only operate IFR.

February 7th, 2003, 22:04	#7
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,124	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Wow. This is even more restrictive than what they do at the airport I fly out of, which is one of the DC three. There, you have to be based there, and then on top of that, you need to get cleared by the TSA, FBI, and Secret Service. After you get your clearance, Clarence (sorry, couldn't resist there) you have to call the Leesburg FSS and they file a TFR exit and entry flight plan for you. After that is done, you have to call DCA approach on the phone to get a squawk. Then you can fly. If you do not call DCA, you're screwed. It's a situation that nobody likes. I know I don't like it, and I know that the ATC folks don't like it either. You can tell by the way they talk to us -- like one time, the guy said after I read back his directions, give yourself a couple of gold stars for getting it right. I was like, what the hell did I do to deserve that?

February 8th, 2003, 10:52	#8
drumminpilot Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Springdale, AR (XNA/RVS/ASG) Posts: 320	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Geez...... I really take for granted the airspace here. Other than the usual Class C or D procedures, you just hop in and go whenever and wherever (to an extent obviously) you want to go. Man, I'm sorry to hear that guys.

February 8th, 2003, 22:18	#9
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,124	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! It sounds like a lot more people will be getting used to doing what I've been doing. This is ridiculous. The ATC folks are going to be pissed. Now they're going to have to deal with at least twice, more like three times, the number of people they had to and they already didn't like dealing with us. Doug, get ready to hear a lot more student pilots stammering their way through radio communications when you fly into DCA! I just looked at the AOPA website and man, am I even more pissed! Now, in order to get off the ground, the TSA will be screening me. On top of that, I have to land at Lee airport in Annapolis before I can go back to my home airport. That's bullcaca! I'd say it's time to start fighting the TSA and all this BS, but you know what, I don't want to risk my ticket. Since the TSA can have the FAA yank your ticket if they feel you are a security risk, and complaining about their ridiculous rules may get you labelled such, I think I'll just bend over and take it, as much as it pisses me off. This is just flat out un-American. And this is being done to protect symbols of freedom. Anyone see the irony in that?

February 9th, 2003, 13:54	#10
Mahesh Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Northern Hemisphere Posts: 1,311	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! I am simply flabergasted. I am based out of Leesburg Municiple (JYO). So I have to file a VFR flight plan even to stay in the pattern and practice landings, let alone fly out of the area. I hope I get another job outside of the DC area so that I can work on my IFR ticket elsewhere. Mahesh

February 9th, 2003, 17:18	#11
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,124	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! I went up today and I figured I'd give you an update. I spoke with the folks at Leesburg about what's going to happen. Effective 6:00 AM tomorrow, you will not be permitted to fly unless you get a TFR clearance for both your exit and your entry. And if you land anywhere, you will have to fly to ANP for an inspection before they let you in. Also, you will have a TSA security person check out your aircraft and your baggage before you get to fly, and they will check your ID and your license or medical. I'm not sure what they are going to do regarding clearing pliots and flying. If they do require you to get cleared before you fly, here's what we had to do. We were required to get a background check done by the TSA, FBI, and Secret Service (fortunately, this was all done at the same time and we didn't have to go back three times). Then after that, we had to go to the FSDO for an interview. Only after that were we issued a PIN in order to file for a TFR clearance. The TFR clearance is different than a VFR flight plan. Essentially, all you do is tell them when you want to leave the TFR and when you want to come back. You can file that when you get the weather brief. I didn't mind that too much. What really pisses me off is the nonsense about having to land at ANP for an inspection on the way back. The only exception is when you maintain contact with ATC at all times during flight and do not land anywhere! George Bush and his cronies deserve a prop up their butts for this stupidity.

February 10th, 2003, 00:09	#12
zombie5225 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 117	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! I enjoyed my last day of trouble free VFR. To think after today I am going to need to be on a flight plan just to buzz around the easter shore! One question that I have, will I be able to fly where I want under a VFR flight plan, or will I have to have a destination airport on file and stay on course while under class B?

February 10th, 2003, 05:23	#13
Mahesh Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Northern Hemisphere Posts: 1,311	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! I am pasting an email I got through a Leesburg Pilots email list, written by someone named Ed. First, my disclaimer.... I am trying to provide you the best information that I can with the information that I have. Use the information I provide you with CAUTION as it changes each MINUTE and with each person I speak with. I expect to get more info VERY early Monday Morning and will disseminate it as it is available. Thanks.. Now.. after discussing with the FAA, and FSS and ATC, here is how "I PERSONALLY" would fly out of JYO, VFR on Monday Morning. - be very patient.. Many corporations are "nervous" about the TFR and are filing flightplans Directly with Leesburg FSS rather than using their normal electronic channels. One company has over 100 flightplans for tomorrow already. Leesburg FSS (as is the system is going to be very busy) - Calling 1-800-WX Brief "might" get you Leesburg FSS, but then again, it may now. To be certain to reach Leesburg FSS, you may call them at 1-866-225-7410. - I would file my VFR flight plan with Leesburg via 866-225-7410 and the initial route of my flight would be directly North or West to "get out of the area" as soon as possible. - After doing my run-up, I would call Clearance Delivery (118.55) to get my transponder code and explain that I am VFR, number # for departure and get my departure freq from them. (this is all a gray area.. but others agreed that this would be a good attempt). - I would announce on CTAF at JYO my departure, then continue to monitor CTAF on one radio while I called Potomac Approach on my assigned departure freq. This will be easy for the IFR pilots as the procedures are what you are used to. Be patient and help each other.. and DON'T bust rules and airspace... it hurts us all, and could be especially dangerous for you depending on which airspace you bust.

February 10th, 2003, 07:46	#14
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,124	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! If they do things like they did at my airport, then what will happen is once you clear the area, you can do whatever you want. You just need to get in touch with approach before you get into the airspace and you better be sure you have a squawk code and have been cleared into the TFR before you go in there. When Air Force One came through one day when I was up, I was told to remain clear of the TFR since the airport I fly out of is just a few miles south of Andrews. ATC told me to come back later otherwise I'd be circling for a while! Please, folks, if you fly in the DC area, DO NOT BUST THE AIRSPACE because you will hurt all of us! They're getting carried away, yes, but breaking the rules aren't the way to show them that we think they're idiots. By the way, I saw one of those Customs aircraft yesterday. He shadowed me when I was doing pattern work!

February 10th, 2003, 13:52	#15
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,722	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Well, at least we now know what flying in a police state looks like.

February 24th, 2003, 22:27	#16
jlo Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 42	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! What is up with the security restrictions in that area (Baltimore-DC)? I have been reading the posts and was curious if flight training has slowed down because of the situation. I have been offered a job (CFI/CFII) in the Baltimore area, but I am hesitant. I know someone that works at the same location, and he said he was logging about 80-100 hours/month, but that was before the security restrictions were imposed. He said it is no big deal, that you just have to be on a flight plan, and it puts more responsibility on the instructors. I know no one can tell me whether or not to "go or no go" on the job, but I do not want to move (20 hours) to a great flight school, only to have all the students quit training because of the security restrictions. Should I be worried, or are things pretty normal? PS--With instructor jobs so limited, I really do not want to pass up a good thing!

February 25th, 2003, 00:15	#17
zombie5225 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 117	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! It hasnt been that bad, it could be worse. Its about a 15 minute wait to file a VFR flight plan. Ive been doing mostly IFR however. What school/airport are you planning to work for??

February 25th, 2003, 00:51	#18
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,124	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! Where is the job? You definitely do not want to take a job at Potomac, Hyde, or College Park. I fly out of one of those places and as soon as I get my ticket, I'm headed to Gaithersburg for a flying club and I'll get my instruction from a contractor. It is just too inconvenient for me to have to subject myself to a TSA proctological exam before I fly and then have to fly to a specific airport for another one before I return.

February 25th, 2003, 18:38	#19
DrBenny Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 395	Re: BALTIMORE WASHINGTON PILOTS--URGENT ALERT! jlo, it has been a royal PITA around here lately. Add to that the INCREDIBLY bad weather, and you'll see that there has been a lot of time off. I would have been done with my XCs by now. You have to file a flight plan--essentially IFR--and get cleared out of and into the ADIZ. I've heard tell that if we goto war, ALL flight training as well as VFR ops will be suspended. Please tell me where you've been offered the job. I know the flight schools around here, and probably can tell you a bit about them! DrBenny

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