Passengers Sue After Plane Delay On Snowy Runway - Page 2

flyover · January 3rd, 2006, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

Tony's right. Any captain with a set of cojones would get the passengers out. Unfortunately I have flown with too many who are "cojonally challenged" and would just sit there.

That's just a ridiculous statement. Do what? Disembark your pax down the slides and have them walk in? Taxi through the 20 airplanes between you and the currently occupied gates? You can spout all you want but if you end up in this situation you'll be as stuck as others before you have been.

And if you think it's a matter of having cajones, you'll be one of thie idiots on the radio who makes everyone else shake their heards and who only makes matters worse.

You may go a career and not have it happen to you. I hope you do. But when you're stuck on a taxiway with dozens of airplanes in front of you and no open taxiways or gates in sight, your cajones with get you squat.

Doug Taylor · January 3rd, 2006, 18:06

Let them out to where? If you're on a seven hour delay, I think the scenario would be a lot like this.

Lots of airplanes all over the taxiways. Outbound flights aren't leaving because of the weather and occupying gates leaving no gates to return to. Even if you were able to get airstairs out to the aircraft on the taxiway despite the unplowed surfaces (remember, snow plows aren't plowing around parked aircraft), you're going to have to find a way to move anywhere from 50 to 300 people from the secure area back into the terminal.

Even with this ability, next thing you know, you're going to have 777's, 767ERs, 75's etc all calling for that one airstair and the bus to deplane passengers. --->IF<--- you can even charter a bus, get it approved by the airport authority, FAA and TSA to enter the secure area. Even if a bus is large enough to carry 50 people, you're going to have to make three or up to six or seven round trips to deplane --->ONE<--- aircraft.

That means that the roads up to the airport are plowed and driveable -- if you have the authority to do such, if buses or airstairs are available if the FAA, TSA, AA buy off on the idea.

What do you do with them then? The aircraft is still stuck on the taxiway so if things opened up, there's probably no gate to return to pick up the pax, if they're not blocked on the taxiway.

Trust me, if there was a way to return to the gate, they'd have returned the gate. From a pilot's perspective, there is no hell worse than sitting in a locked cockpit on the taxiway with the flight attendant chime ringing every 30 seconds, people meandering about the cabin and demanding all sorts of interesting things from the cockpit.

The problem with legislation is that you're going to have people deciding what should be done with zero operational experience, no knowledge of security procedures and certainly no idea on how an airport works.

The cure will most certainly be worse than the ailment.

I sat three hours on an aircraft during a departure delay in ORD along with a few trillion other aircraft. Our gates were occupied, ground equipment wasn't moving because of the snow, all departures were halted. In fact, we were sitting on an unused runway because there was zero taxiway space, all ramp space was gone and no place to go.

Chris_Ford · January 3rd, 2006, 18:46

So do they still keep accepting inbounds or what? I don't understand how there could be so many aircraft on the ground at one time if everything stops at once...

tonyw · January 3rd, 2006, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

Tony's right. Any captain with a set of cojones would get the passengers out. Unfortunately I have flown with too many who are "cojonally challenged" and would just sit there.

Well, using those cojones instead of your head may very well cost you your job. Feel like throwing away hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars so you can feel that testosterone surge?

Doug Taylor · January 3rd, 2006, 18:54

Usually in that situation, the aircraft are diverted.

Which causes other problems. Some diversionary airports are 'temporary' hold points for diverting jets where they can fuel up and depart again, but don't have the capacity to offload passengers. For example when ORD went to crap when I was working at Skyway, we had 767's, MD-11's and 777's sitting on the ramp outside of the CAL gates. I don't think a jetway there could handle any of the jets so they sat there loaded up waiting for weather to improve.

They could have put more fuel on to make a further alternate, but that means more fuel, more weight, more cost, less payload, perhaps fewer passengers -- *IF* the forecast weather at ORD even required an alternate. And if the airport doesn't require an alternate, chances are you're not going to get one and the crew probably doesn't have an idea that a unforecast system is about to march over Chicagoland because of a change in winds.

This stuff isn't exactly a uhh, 'exact' science.

Mr_Creepy · January 3rd, 2006, 20:51

Quote:

That's just a ridiculous statement. Do what? Disembark your pax down the slides and have them walk in? Taxi through the 20 airplanes between you and the currently occupied gates? You can spout all you want but if you end up in this situation you'll be as stuck as others before you have been.

And if you think it's a matter of having cajones, you'll be one of thie idiots on the radio who makes everyone else shake their heards and who only makes matters worse.

You may go a career and not have it happen to you. I hope you do. But when you're stuck on a taxiway with dozens of airplanes in front of you and no open taxiways or gates in sight, your cajones with get you squat.

First of all, I had the career so yes it did happen to me. More than once. We got parked out one wintery day at Logan (BOS) and I raised holy hell on ops frequency until they sent a couple pax buses out to get my folks. Whaddya know next summer they park us out with an inop APU - dying of heat this time. Once again, I start raising hell on the ops frequency. A familiar voice comes back, "didn't I talk to you last winter?"

After each event I called my chief pilot immediately, and explained to him what happened. No job lost, no money risked, just having the balls to do what was right, and not being worried about a carpet dance.

In both cases the CP said "Thanks John, you did the right thing."

Doug Taylor · January 3rd, 2006, 20:57

Passenger buses? YV? Aroo?!

TonyC · January 3rd, 2006, 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

We got parked out one wintery day at Logan (BOS) ...

I'm so glad you clarified that - - I was gonna hafta ask ya if ya meant Boston or Billings.

.

Mr_Creepy · January 3rd, 2006, 21:02

Passenger buses are standard at Logan for CRJs. They are managed by Allegheny last I knew, but of course I haven't been there in 4 years.

MQAAord · January 3rd, 2006, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Passenger buses? YV? Aroo?!

At ORD I know bus availability wouldn't be a problem, the buses that go back and forth to the employee lot could be used. In BOS, DFW, JFK the buses that are used for boarding could be made available. Bill lost (that's lost as in departed the aircraft) a tire on an ATR at ORD once. They couldn't continue to taxi like that, so an employee bus (already SIDA approved since they carry employees directly from parking lot to terminal) was there within 20 minutes to get the folks off.

There's so many issues involved with that situation. With clogged taxiways, chock-a-block full ramp/gate/parking areas, blowing snow, lightning, there's just no way to say in EVERY situation here's what should be done.

I've been there myself many, many (too many) times.

Doug Taylor · January 3rd, 2006, 21:12

So how's JC's "Soap Star Looks" Mr. MQAAord doing anyway?

MQAAord · January 3rd, 2006, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

So how's JC's "Soap Star Looks" Mr. MQAAord doing anyway?

Eh, the usual.

Nothing like company drama to make him come home 3 trips in a row in a foul, spitting mood. Life's a peach.

There are many, many days that I'm not only glad I'm out of the industry, but that I wish I never ever had to deal with it ever again.

Doug Taylor · January 3rd, 2006, 21:25

Like I always say, "I'm working for my last airline....Regardless..."

(Irregardless!

)

fender_jag · January 3rd, 2006, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

(Irregardless!

)

mpenguin1 · January 3rd, 2006, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MQAAord

There's so many issues involved with that situation. With clogged taxiways, chock-a-block full ramp/gate/parking areas, blowing snow, lightning, there's just no way to say in EVERY situation here's what should be done.

This is perhaps the wisest comment that has been said before. I am willing to admit, that there are some strange events, such as a creeping weather delay, but, to let your customers rot, is just not good business.

This particular case seems like it falls under the unusual department..

Quote:

Police boarded the plane and Ingo Q. ran forward and screamed "I want to get out of here." But only three people who only had hand luggage were allowed to leave the plane.

Shortly after noon, Ingo Q told police again that he wanted to leave the aircraft, still waiting on the snow-covered runway. Ingo, his wife and another couple from Biesdorf near Berlin were allowed off the plane at 12:48 p.m., and it finally took off at 2:36 p.m., seven hours late, Bild said.

Doug Taylor · January 3rd, 2006, 22:22

Trust me, pax will "lose it" on a clear, VMC day with no delays.

mpenguin1 · January 3rd, 2006, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Trust me, pax will "lose it" on a clear, VMC day with no delays.

True, I agree with that statement.

I''ll you this, if I am stuck on an aircraft for 7-10 hours, I think that I will lose it and I have been involved in aviation for about 20 years..

tonyw · January 4th, 2006, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

I''ll you this, if I am stuck on an aircraft for 7-10 hours, I think that I will lose it and I have been involved in aviation for about 20 years..

Damn! It must have been a real bitch to get to jolly old England, then.

mpenguin1 · January 4th, 2006, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyw

Damn! It must have been a real bitch to get to jolly old England, then.

Tony

*End of memo*

Doug Taylor · January 4th, 2006, 01:44

Your Jedi tricks don't work on me....

mpenguin1 · January 4th, 2006, 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Your Jedi tricks don't work on me....

Ok, how about I mess with your head!

tonyw · January 4th, 2006, 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpenguin1

Ok, how about I mess with your head!

Where do you get this stuff, Pengy?

And dude, when you make it that easy for me.....

flyover · January 4th, 2006, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

First of all, I had the career so yes it did happen to me. More than once. We got parked out one wintery day at Logan (BOS) and I raised holy hell on ops frequency until they sent a couple pax buses out to get my folks. Whaddya know next summer they park us out with an inop APU - dying of heat this time. Once again, I start raising hell on the ops frequency. A familiar voice comes back, "didn't I talk to you last winter?"

After each event I called my chief pilot immediately, and explained to him what happened. No job lost, no money risked, just having the balls to do what was right, and not being worried about a carpet dance.

In both cases the CP said "Thanks John, you did the right thing."

Well, I'm very proud of you. You were in a situation where they could get a bus out to you. It doesn't take a genius in that case.

You don't think that, while sitting on an airplane full of passengers for hours, we weren't trying everything possible? It wasn't an option. You weren't in the same situation I was. Again, hope you never are.

Mr_Creepy · January 4th, 2006, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyover

Well, I'm very proud of you. You were in a situation where they could get a bus out to you. It doesn't take a genius in that case.

You don't think that, while sitting on an airplane full of passengers for hours, we weren't trying everything possible? It wasn't an option. You weren't in the same situation I was. Again, hope you never are.

I'm sorry - I didn't know you were one of the pilots involved.

January 3rd, 2006, 18:06	#27
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Let them out to where? If you're on a seven hour delay, I think the scenario would be a lot like this. Lots of airplanes all over the taxiways. Outbound flights aren't leaving because of the weather and occupying gates leaving no gates to return to. Even if you were able to get airstairs out to the aircraft on the taxiway despite the unplowed surfaces (remember, snow plows aren't plowing around parked aircraft), you're going to have to find a way to move anywhere from 50 to 300 people from the secure area back into the terminal. Even with this ability, next thing you know, you're going to have 777's, 767ERs, 75's etc all calling for that one airstair and the bus to deplane passengers. --->IF<--- you can even charter a bus, get it approved by the airport authority, FAA and TSA to enter the secure area. Even if a bus is large enough to carry 50 people, you're going to have to make three or up to six or seven round trips to deplane --->ONE<--- aircraft. That means that the roads up to the airport are plowed and driveable -- if you have the authority to do such, if buses or airstairs are available if the FAA, TSA, AA buy off on the idea. What do you do with them then? The aircraft is still stuck on the taxiway so if things opened up, there's probably no gate to return to pick up the pax, if they're not blocked on the taxiway. Trust me, if there was a way to return to the gate, they'd have returned the gate. From a pilot's perspective, there is no hell worse than sitting in a locked cockpit on the taxiway with the flight attendant chime ringing every 30 seconds, people meandering about the cabin and demanding all sorts of interesting things from the cockpit. The problem with legislation is that you're going to have people deciding what should be done with zero operational experience, no knowledge of security procedures and certainly no idea on how an airport works. The cure will most certainly be worse than the ailment. I sat three hours on an aircraft during a departure delay in ORD along with a few trillion other aircraft. Our gates were occupied, ground equipment wasn't moving because of the snow, all departures were halted. In fact, we were sitting on an unused runway because there was zero taxiway space, all ramp space was gone and no place to go. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

January 3rd, 2006, 18:54	#30
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Usually in that situation, the aircraft are diverted. Which causes other problems. Some diversionary airports are 'temporary' hold points for diverting jets where they can fuel up and depart again, but don't have the capacity to offload passengers. For example when ORD went to crap when I was working at Skyway, we had 767's, MD-11's and 777's sitting on the ramp outside of the CAL gates. I don't think a jetway there could handle any of the jets so they sat there loaded up waiting for weather to improve. They could have put more fuel on to make a further alternate, but that means more fuel, more weight, more cost, less payload, perhaps fewer passengers -- IF the forecast weather at ORD even required an alternate. And if the airport doesn't require an alternate, chances are you're not going to get one and the crew probably doesn't have an idea that a unforecast system is about to march over Chicagoland because of a change in winds. This stuff isn't exactly a uhh, 'exact' science. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

January 3rd, 2006, 20:57	#32
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Passenger buses? YV? Aroo?! __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

January 3rd, 2006, 21:02	#34
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,810	Passenger buses are standard at Logan for CRJs. They are managed by Allegheny last I knew, but of course I haven't been there in 4 years. __________________ "You know you're winning an argument with a liberal when they start calling you names" johntenney.com The PEO Message Myspace My Business - PEO Pros

January 3rd, 2006, 21:12	#36
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	So how's JC's "Soap Star Looks" Mr. MQAAord doing anyway? __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

January 3rd, 2006, 18:46	#28
Chris_Ford Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,329	So do they still keep accepting inbounds or what? I don't understand how there could be so many aircraft on the ground at one time if everything stops at once...

January 3rd, 2006, 21:25	#38
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Like I always say, "I'm working for my last airline....Regardless..." (Irregardless! ) __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

January 3rd, 2006, 22:22	#41
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Trust me, pax will "lose it" on a clear, VMC day with no delays. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

January 4th, 2006, 01:44	#45
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Your Jedi tricks don't work on me.... __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

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