United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... - Page 2

ready2fly · January 31st, 2003, 13:13

pilot602: Your points are valid and could be made just as easily without the expletives. Otherwise - Amen.

mpenguin1 · January 31st, 2003, 13:27

We criticize everybody, it is human nature. We criticize the dentist or doctors for not working weekends to meet our work schedule. We make comments about the TSA people not being professional or not very smart.

You expect the general public to read headlines about the financial trouble of the airlines and not to have a comment, well, that is very naïve.

I have been in the aviation industry for 12 years and that time has been spent in the area of crew scheduling and crew planning. I know what it is like scheduling for a non-union airline and for union airline, so when I make a comment it is from experience. Most of my buddies are airline pukes and a nice percentage of those are pilots. I have buddies flying for American, Alaska, and Boeing, had a buddy working for US Air, but he is now working for Emirates. Know plenty of guys that retired from TWA, deal with pilots from Qantas, Aloha, Hawaiian, Allegiant, Jetsgo, even the FAA, and so on. So anytime you see me post a comment on this website, it is not hate or rumor, but experience and/or knowledge.

Hell Doug, I even know some of the schedulers from Delta, by the way Pat Freeman just retired on 31-January, very nice guy.

ready2fly · January 31st, 2003, 13:36

Pilot602:

Good job.

Doug Taylor · January 31st, 2003, 13:49

[ QUOTE ]

But Doug.....Is a 5 leg day normal at Delta?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah!

A320_DUDE · January 31st, 2003, 17:35

[ QUOTE ]

So why then, when it comes to airline pilots - who are second to very few professions in terms of training, testing, monitoring and responsibility, and who only get paid for flight time - which requires them to do a vast majority of their work "off the clock" - is it SO (edit)gets my goat(edit) SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO BLAST THEIR PAY SCALES AND DEMAND THEY TAKE PAYCUTS AND WORK UNDER UNSAFE CONDITIONS?

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's socially acceptable to "squeeze the golden goose for every last egg" ? I'm not blasting their payscales(although I think UA went FAR overboard),but if they want to have that industry leading wages,then I think they should be flying closer to 900-1000 hard hours a year. Southwest,AirTran,&JetBlue fly their crews this much so why should'nt United ask their pilots to do the same.

Doug Taylor · January 31st, 2003, 17:51

Hey 737_dude --

Love ya man, but it's a lot more complex than you're making it. First, we're all lacking hard numbers as to what the average UAL pilot flies compared to SWA.

To have any type of a "why don't you just fly like XYZ", you're goign to have to consider the route network.

JBLU has what, 13 airplanes and a small national network? You can fly NY to FL or NY to CA. That's about it. They're not making capital payments on the A-320's they have and most of their employees are on their first few years of pay.

SWA is a strong domestic carrier that isn't fighting their employees so they're working together.

Air Tran - Air Tran, in my opinion, is allowed to exist because if there was no other viable air carrier serving ATL, Delta would be in the mother of all anti-trust lawsuits.

UAL, however, can take you literally from Des Moines, IA to Bejieng, China with one stop in ORD. It's an entirely different beast and the more the analyst du jour says "Oh, just fly like XYZ and things'll be ok" is junk science.

USAir is trying to do that and now they've got 17 year seniority pilots on furlough and haven't much of a product left to build on.

Hey, here's a trivia question for you guys! What major airline, formed after deregulation, actually survived more than 10 years?

A300Capt · January 31st, 2003, 18:04

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, here's a trivia question for you guys! What major airline, formed after deregulation, actually survived more than 10 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

Midway?

Doug Taylor · January 31st, 2003, 18:06

Midway's back, kinda, but kinda not!

Wolverine · January 31st, 2003, 18:16

[ QUOTE ]
What major airline, formed after deregulation, actually survived more than 10 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

AmericaWest, 20 years and counting...

Doug Taylor · January 31st, 2003, 18:20

I haven't confirmed it, but you are correcto!

A300Capt · January 31st, 2003, 18:23

To the best of my limited knowledge, Midway was the first major airline to form after deregulation and has survived more that 10 years.

A320_DUDE · January 31st, 2003, 23:34

Hey Doug,

JB has almost 40 planes now...granted the majority of our services are JFK-FL & CA but we also have DEN,LAS,MSY,SEA,SLC,BTV,and a couple places in upstate New York. Oh and who can forget SJU

!.

I went over to Flight Info and got some average (keyword: AVERAGE ) monthly/yearly hours for the majors
Disclamer: I don't know how accurate these are...it's just to give us something to work with! These times are flight time only!

UAL=36/432
AAL=39/468
NWA=40/480
DAL=45/540
ALSKA=46/552
JB=47/564
CAL=49/588
USA=50/600
FRNT=50/600
ATRAN=51/612
SWA=62/744

Now granted these are the average. I think in an earlier post Doug said he flew close to 700 hours so he would be in the top end for Delta. We all know AirTran and SWA will never fly passnegers between DSM and Bejing.....but is there a need to? A lot of that of flying being done(esp. Intl) is operating under that "because we can" pretext! Kinda like showing the company's colors. Pan Am did that and look what happened to them!

Doug Taylor · February 1st, 2003, 09:51

Seeeeeeeeriously doubt those figures in my humble opinion. The figures that I have are hard flight time and didn't include credit or reroute pay.

And I'm typically on the lower end of flight time compared to other -88/90 pilots at Delta because I ended the year with a a 70 hour deficit and little time in the 'flight bank'.

Plus, it's an entirely different market. For example, Air Tran generally has more leisure traffic that's domestic oriented. They have two aircraft types with limited missions and a relatively 'young' (ie, AirTran/Valujet hasn't been around that long) labor group.

On the other hand. United has an extensive international operation, needs maintenance operations and crew support throughout the Pacific, Asia, western Europe and central/south America.

This is a radical comparison, but saying that United Airlines should operate like Air Tran is almost like telling British Airways to think like Southwest airlines.

Two different animals entirely.

January 31st, 2003, 13:13	#26
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... pilot602: Your points are valid and could be made just as easily without the expletives. Otherwise - Amen.

January 31st, 2003, 13:27	#27
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,868 Blog Entries: 5	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... We criticize everybody, it is human nature. We criticize the dentist or doctors for not working weekends to meet our work schedule. We make comments about the TSA people not being professional or not very smart. You expect the general public to read headlines about the financial trouble of the airlines and not to have a comment, well, that is very naïve. I have been in the aviation industry for 12 years and that time has been spent in the area of crew scheduling and crew planning. I know what it is like scheduling for a non-union airline and for union airline, so when I make a comment it is from experience. Most of my buddies are airline pukes and a nice percentage of those are pilots. I have buddies flying for American, Alaska, and Boeing, had a buddy working for US Air, but he is now working for Emirates. Know plenty of guys that retired from TWA, deal with pilots from Qantas, Aloha, Hawaiian, Allegiant, Jetsgo, even the FAA, and so on. So anytime you see me post a comment on this website, it is not hate or rumor, but experience and/or knowledge. Hell Doug, I even know some of the schedulers from Delta, by the way Pat Freeman just retired on 31-January, very nice guy.

January 31st, 2003, 13:36	#28
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... Pilot602: Good job.

January 31st, 2003, 13:49	#29
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... [ QUOTE ] But Doug.....Is a 5 leg day normal at Delta? [/ QUOTE ] Oh yeah!

January 31st, 2003, 17:35	#30
A320_DUDE Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Hartford,CT Posts: 203	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... [ QUOTE ] So why then, when it comes to airline pilots - who are second to very few professions in terms of training, testing, monitoring and responsibility, and who only get paid for flight time - which requires them to do a vast majority of their work "off the clock" - is it SO (edit)gets my goat(edit) SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO BLAST THEIR PAY SCALES AND DEMAND THEY TAKE PAYCUTS AND WORK UNDER UNSAFE CONDITIONS? [/ QUOTE ] So it's socially acceptable to "squeeze the golden goose for every last egg" ? I'm not blasting their payscales(although I think UA went FAR overboard),but if they want to have that industry leading wages,then I think they should be flying closer to 900-1000 hard hours a year. Southwest,AirTran,&JetBlue fly their crews this much so why should'nt United ask their pilots to do the same.

January 31st, 2003, 17:51	#31
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... Hey 737_dude -- Love ya man, but it's a lot more complex than you're making it. First, we're all lacking hard numbers as to what the average UAL pilot flies compared to SWA. To have any type of a "why don't you just fly like XYZ", you're goign to have to consider the route network. JBLU has what, 13 airplanes and a small national network? You can fly NY to FL or NY to CA. That's about it. They're not making capital payments on the A-320's they have and most of their employees are on their first few years of pay. SWA is a strong domestic carrier that isn't fighting their employees so they're working together. Air Tran - Air Tran, in my opinion, is allowed to exist because if there was no other viable air carrier serving ATL, Delta would be in the mother of all anti-trust lawsuits. UAL, however, can take you literally from Des Moines, IA to Bejieng, China with one stop in ORD. It's an entirely different beast and the more the analyst du jour says "Oh, just fly like XYZ and things'll be ok" is junk science. USAir is trying to do that and now they've got 17 year seniority pilots on furlough and haven't much of a product left to build on. Hey, here's a trivia question for you guys! What major airline, formed after deregulation, actually survived more than 10 years?

January 31st, 2003, 18:04	#32
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 708	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... [ QUOTE ] Hey, here's a trivia question for you guys! What major airline, formed after deregulation, actually survived more than 10 years? [/ QUOTE ] Midway?

January 31st, 2003, 18:06	#33
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... Midway's back, kinda, but kinda not!

January 31st, 2003, 18:16	#34
Wolverine Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 167	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... [ QUOTE ] What major airline, formed after deregulation, actually survived more than 10 years? [/ QUOTE ] AmericaWest, 20 years and counting...

January 31st, 2003, 18:20	#35
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... I haven't confirmed it, but you are correcto!

January 31st, 2003, 18:23	#36
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 708	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... To the best of my limited knowledge, Midway was the first major airline to form after deregulation and has survived more that 10 years.

January 31st, 2003, 23:34	#37
A320_DUDE Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Hartford,CT Posts: 203	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... Hey Doug, JB has almost 40 planes now...granted the majority of our services are JFK-FL & CA but we also have DEN,LAS,MSY,SEA,SLC,BTV,and a couple places in upstate New York. Oh and who can forget SJU !. I went over to Flight Info and got some average (keyword: AVERAGE ) monthly/yearly hours for the majors Disclamer: I don't know how accurate these are...it's just to give us something to work with! These times are flight time only! UAL=36/432 AAL=39/468 NWA=40/480 DAL=45/540 ALSKA=46/552 JB=47/564 CAL=49/588 USA=50/600 FRNT=50/600 ATRAN=51/612 SWA=62/744 Now granted these are the average. I think in an earlier post Doug said he flew close to 700 hours so he would be in the top end for Delta. We all know AirTran and SWA will never fly passnegers between DSM and Bejing.....but is there a need to? A lot of that of flying being done(esp. Intl) is operating under that "because we can" pretext! Kinda like showing the company's colors. Pan Am did that and look what happened to them!

February 1st, 2003, 09:51	#38
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants.... Seeeeeeeeriously doubt those figures in my humble opinion. The figures that I have are hard flight time and didn't include credit or reroute pay. And I'm typically on the lower end of flight time compared to other -88/90 pilots at Delta because I ended the year with a a 70 hour deficit and little time in the 'flight bank'. Plus, it's an entirely different market. For example, Air Tran generally has more leisure traffic that's domestic oriented. They have two aircraft types with limited missions and a relatively 'young' (ie, AirTran/Valujet hasn't been around that long) labor group. On the other hand. United has an extensive international operation, needs maintenance operations and crew support throughout the Pacific, Asia, western Europe and central/south America. This is a radical comparison, but saying that United Airlines should operate like Air Tran is almost like telling British Airways to think like Southwest airlines. Two different animals entirely.

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